Prayer?

[The Grand Nudger]

what else is their to explore then? i have posted my thoughts and the supporting scripture... So 'remind me.'

No, you haven't. Why would you when you could just claim that you had made your case rather then making it? I'm enjoying you dance around between free will and sin robots btw. You decided that the subject was worth it;s own thread, so if you want, you could always provide us with scriptural support for your timeline and monkey men in that thread. Seems fitting. You haven't yet, here or there, so I guess I'll just have to wait. Perhaps even more importantly, you've failed to establish the veracity of a scriptural account, or that scripture is an authority on the subject in the first place. You have a very, very long road ahead of you.

Score one for the douchegod, created to be damned-with no choice in the matter-and then blamed for it. :claps: Further proof that I am descended from soul-less monkey man and not your sin robot ancestors.

I do have a choice (and assuming hard determinism, that I don't, I'm just not a sin robot I guess, tough luck, because that sounds fantastic), one which I exercise daily.

[Skepsis]

No where in the bible are we promised this at any time. this is not free will. This is freedom of choice. Free will as the bible defines it is the ablity to sin. This they had, this we have.

Freedom of choice is simply free will to a lesser degree, but I'll call traditional free will "freedom of choice" if it helps you to distinguish.

Nope.

It's ok. You usually don't. Do you believe in a literal hell? Do you believe in any place of everlasting punishment for being "away from God"?

God is loving if you seek His love. God is Just if you seek The attonement offered.

Don't you see how this is oxymoronic? He created a plan where nobody has freedom of choice, then blames of for makes the choices that we were going to make per his plan. We don't have anything to atone for because, though it was us doing the wrong, it was him that manipulated, no, forced us to behave in that way.
[/quote]

He will be neither to those who do not seek what He has offered. Both Love and Justice are conditional gifts.

Because your God is a prick. Good thing there isn't a shred of evidence for the existence of this supernatural creature.

It 'matters' from a state of ignorance (of God) and it did not matter when you knew of God and all He could offer if you remained faithful for 70 years or so?

Repeat that in an intelligible way. I am not the person that was asked, as I don't identify myself as a person who was approached with this proposal.

I am suggesting that the 'ethereal' version of yourself had duluded himself into thinking He was god's goto guy, and when you were seperated from God your true colors came out. So now when you go before God in judgement there can be no doubt in your mind who you are and where your heart truly stands.

>.>
There was no etherial version of myself. This claim is unfounded, and if you continue to make shit up there is no way I can defeat your argument.
Back it up, prove that it happened. Prove that it is possible. Then we will talk more.
I get tired of the Rogerian approach.

Bar=Son of, Heyseus=Jesus?

Gotcha.

If it's "God's plan" that I have to sin and have no choice in the matter and the very essence of what is "me" was created by him, then I am not at fault for sinning. He made me to sin. I am a sinning robot, if you will.

Yes!

You... are really creeping me out. Are you blind to the implications?

Now complete the line of logic... Since you were created a sinner and you have no choice but to sin then that means you are doomed to Hell...

Well, yeah. According to your dogma. Do you see the implications, though? for the "just" God that you have offered? Seriously?

Unless an attoning sacerfice has been made on your behalf! Now as a robot your programmer must have also programmed you to accept this attonement did He not?

Seeing as I neither believe in sin nor God alongside millions of others, no, he didn't.

moving the goal posts again???

As long as the true meaning of "free will" is transferred to "freedom of choice" in a way meaningful to the person I am talking to, then I am fine with the change.

AGAIN, Because Everything you know of God came from the bible. now that you have established God with the bible and formulated a question against his nature, with what you have learned from the bible. you refuse the bible (The Same Source You Used To Identify God, and Frame your Question) No longer a valid source. Do you need me to repost the defination, for that is a perfect example of moving the goal posts fallacy!

I am NOT formulating a question against the nature of your God. I'll make this very, very clear to you so it doesn't escape even you:
If the God of your bible purportedly acted on something physical, that is, committed to a course of action that had an effect on the physical world, then he just moved from "untestable bible's domain" to "testable, physical domain". Overlapping magisteria.
Therefore, it isn't beyond my authority to ask for evidence beyond that of the Bible to prove an extra-biblical event.

Actually, he created this culture. He planned it this way. So yes, he is very much "part of this culture".

Proof?

You have already said that this world turns according to his damned plan. So what, he planned everything except the shit we have gotten ourselves into these past 2000 years?

again pushing those who hate further away, and drawing those who love him closer in.

I don't understand you. How you could love a creature (for lack of a better word) that allows the death and suffering of so many on a daily basis when he could very easily solve it with little to no effort on his part.
For some reason it gives me the creeps.

Those who have endured suffering along side a loving God know it's value and do not shy from it when it comes back around. those who choose to go through suffering alone are embittered by it.

It is impossible to suffer through pain and tragedy with a loving God alongside.

Look sport, your appeal to logical fallacies with me is over. whether you understand what a fallacy is or not. If you want to chase your tail with your own home spun brand of thought/logic then feel free to do so. just know i am not going to spin around with you and help you catch it. If you will open you mind a little wider you might learn something, but closing it using logical fallacies will ensure that you will only think as you have been indoctrinated.

So I am taking that as a sign that you don't have a clue what you are talking about and are trying to badmouth your way out of a situation that you know to be inescapable. I have shown you many times, in many ways, why you are wrong. What was your rebuttal? A link to Wikipedia amongst other sites. I know what a fallacy is, I am a 3 year going on four debate student. I am certainly not the best, but I am damn site away from being the ignorant shit you accuse me of being.
Get your facts together, read through my position 4-5 more times, then give it a go. Otherwise I will assume you to be far too incompetent to provide any sort of answer at all to my objection, and so will anyone else who has read any of these posts. I might be wrong, sure. But having my position excused despite many attempts to show that your objection is flawed followed by more links, I highly doubt I am.

How do you know of the God of the bible? where did they Learn? Now keep going to you get back to the bible.. Do you see your delima?

No, I don't understand. I am asking for verification of the existence of prophets of the word of the Christian God as far back as humanity has existed. I shouldn't be asking too much, you would only make the claim if you had evidence after all.

what is traditional prayer? Christ established 'Prayer' from the begining. Anything labled prayer that does not follow His model is not prayer not 'traditional.'

Take more time with your grammar in these posts. I'm having a hard time deciphering what it is you are trying to say. What is "His model is not prayer not 'traditional'"?
I'll clear this up real quick, though. By traditional, I meant what people normally think of when they think of a prayer. If you didn't recognize that people were "petitioning" God commonly you wouldn't have made this thread, I'd bet.

Death is one's birth into eternity!! Do you lement when a baby is born? The only reason Death is a 'bad thing' is when you know you will not be spending eternity with God.

The suffering AND the death. Death isn't bad by nature, I agree. But suffering is. Death commonly causes suffering as well... on top of it all, death is generally not an all too pleasant experience.

No He does every single one! It's what you think prayer is, isn't a prayer at all. To me is sounds like wish making.

If the answer comes as a "no" he didn't answer. "No" and "No answer" are the same.
Your version of prayer is completely indistinguishable from talking to yourself. As a matter of fact, it is talking to yourself.

If I was standing still and someone asked me to stand still, would I be responding in any meaningful way if my intentions from the start were to remain standing still?

What makes 'standing still' in a proper prayer, an answered prayer is when 'standing still' becomes a great benfit for you.

That made absolutely no sense. Try again.

[Drich]

[quote='Rhythm' pid='320601' dateline='1344379511']
[quote]No, you haven't. Why would you when you could just claim that you had made your case rather then making it? I'm enjoying you dance around between free will and sin robots btw. [/quote]
If you remember "Sin Robot" was Skepsis' word, I corrected him and said Paul likened it to being a slave to sin.
Paul Says this in romans 7:13-20

Free will is not mentioned by name, for this is a greek construct of philosphy. We have been give freedom from the expressed will of God as i have said from the beginning. I have even said that this is the 'free will' the bible defines, and not the greek construct skepsis believed it to be. the first example of this freedom from the Expressed will of God was with Adam and eve.


[quote]You decided that the subject was worth it;s own thread, so if you want, you could always provide us with scriptural support for your timeline and monkey men in that thread. Seems fitting. [/quote]The monkey man time line is not my own. i have said from the beginning of that thread that one could insert whatever model of evolution you wish. i simply pointed to a false time line between the 7 literal days of creation and the fall of man. Also pointing out that the whole theory of evolution could neatly fit into this time.

[quote] You haven't yet, here or there, so I guess I'll just have to wait. [/quote]I have, about a dozen times in the orginal 48 pages of that post in this forum, and the 26 pages in the other forum. Just because you did not remember our first discussion nor did you bother to do any catching up does not mean Nothing hasn't been said.

[quote]Perhaps even more importantly, you've failed to establish the veracity of a scriptural account, or that scripture is an authority on the subject in the first place. You have a very, very long road ahead of you.[/quote]This is a road you and your goal post moving friends can travel together. For as i have explained many many times. If you have engauged in a biblical discussion where you ask biblically based questions, then bible becomes it's own crediable source.

[Drich]

It's ok. You usually don't. Do you believe in a literal hell? Do you believe in any place of everlasting punishment for being "away from God"?

Here is all i know of Hell:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7474493/ starts at post 6.

Don't you see how this is oxymoronic? He created a plan where nobody has freedom of choice,

So?

then blames of for makes the choices that we were going to make per his plan.

This is your problem, the sin choices we make ARE the Plan, along with attonement for said sins.

We don't have anything to atone for because, though it was us doing the wrong, it was him that manipulated, no, forced us to behave in that way.

The other 1/2 of your problem.. Sin seperates us from God. If you want to return then you must seperate yourself from sin, per the attonement offered by Christ.

Because your God is a prick.

To the the proud, yes.

Good thing there isn't a shred of evidence for the existence of this supernatural creature.

If there was.. you would have lost the only choice you truly had in this life. That is why He hides Himself from unbelievers.

Repeat that in an intelligible way. I am not the person that was asked, as I don't identify myself as a person who was approached with this proposal.

What do you think it is that I have been doing for the past two nights?

There was no etherial version of myself. This claim is unfounded, and if you continue to make shit up there is no way I can defeat your argument.

You wanted to play what ifs... So i played. You are right in that you have no way of know what happened before your born, but the judgement and the reason for this life remains the same. that half of my "what if" is scripturally founded.

Back it up, prove that it happened. Prove that it is possible. Then we will talk more.
I get tired of the Rogerian approach.

We played because you brought up your own pre birth consciencousness. i simply asked how were you so sure if you were never asked to be born.

Gotcha.

I still don't get it.

Well, yeah. According to your dogma. Do you see the implications, though? for the "just" God that you have offered? Seriously?
Seeing as I neither believe in sin nor God alongside millions of others, no, he didn't.

Gotcha! If God didn't program you to accept the attonement offered, then the 'implications' you alluded to are meaningless. Meaning we are free to accept or refuse as we see fit. (per your own admission)

I am NOT formulating a question against the nature of your God. I'll make this very, very clear to you so it doesn't escape even you:
If the God of your bible purportedly acted on something physical, that is, committed to a course of action that had an effect on the physical world, then he just moved from "untestable bible's domain" to "testable, physical domain". Overlapping magisteria.
Therefore, it isn't beyond my authority to ask for evidence beyond that of the Bible to prove an extra-biblical event.

NOT if it is the same bible who recorded the very event being questioned. It puts it well with in the same domain, in which God and the events surrounding His actions concerning His expressed will (pre law) have been established in the first place. you take away the bible to provide you an answer, you take away your right to question God. For without it you can not question Him nor any of his actions. (pre or post Law)

[

You have already said that this world turns according to his damned plan. So what, he planned everything except the shit we have gotten ourselves into these past 2000 years?

The 'plan' was to put us in an enviorment free from the direct knoweledge of Him allowing us to live as our hearts would demand. Then offer attonement to anyone who earnestly sought after it. That's it. the rest is a direct consenquence of our (limited) choices in life.

I don't understand you. How you could love a creature (for lack of a better word) that allows the death and suffering of so many on a daily basis when he could very easily solve it with little to no effort on his part.
For some reason it gives me the creeps.

Because I know Death not to be the 'worst' thing that could happen to someone. that pain and suffering makes us who we are. that living a life of indulgences litterally Spoils (makes rotten) one very soul. I love God because He has carfully and thoughtfully carried me through many hardships and trials. Pain and suffering has given me perspective and wisdom beyond my station. I have these things because i asked for them, and i know none of this would have been possiable before my 'trials.' i thank god for what He has given me (suffering/pain)

It is impossible to suffer through pain and tragedy with a loving God alongside.

Have you tried it?

I'll clear this up real quick, though. By traditional, I meant what people normally think of when they think of a prayer. If you didn't recognize that people were "petitioning" God commonly you wouldn't have made this thread, I'd bet.

As i said i made this thread because many of you have lost faith for unanswered prayers, and i wanted to establish what prayer actually was. The fact that you can read this entire thread and still call what amounts to a formal wishing cermony a 'traditional prayer' puts a doubt in my mind as to your general comperhensive skills. that is why i needed clarity to what you were actually refering to.

The suffering AND the death. Death isn't bad by nature, I agree. But suffering is.

why? when we excersize our bodies past their confortable limits we suffer do we not? What is the result? A stronger body bigger mussles a stronger physical being. When we suffer spiritually we are also growing stronger spiritually. This is what is needed in order to grow in our relationship with God.

Death commonly causes suffering as well... on top of it all, death is generally not an all too pleasant experience.

i contend for the dead it matters very little.

If the answer comes as a "no" he didn't answer. "No" and "No answer" are the same.
Your version of prayer is completely indistinguishable from talking to yourself. As a matter of fact, it is talking to yourself.

That made absolutely no sense. Try again.

indeed care to rephrase?

[Skepsis]

This is your problem, the sin choices we make ARE the Plan, along with attonement for said sins.

I believe that I can make a case against the justice of your God.
Hell is a pit of fire, in effect. Wicked fire, lake of fire, burning, gnashing of teeth, etc.
Everything anyone ever does is part of God's plan. Sin was part of his plan, as was hell. However, the fact that hell coexists with an "ultimate plan" means that God is unjust. Why?
The ultimate plan, as we can see from observing the world around us, involves sending people to hell for disbelief. A just God wouldn't set up an ultimate plan where he essentially "programmed" unbelievers to reject him, then send this group to hell. That is the pinnacle of injustice.

The other 1/2 of your problem.. Sin seperates us from God. If you want to return then you must seperate yourself from sin, per the attonement offered by Christ.

Sin was part of his "program". If we would act this way regardless of whether or not we think we are making our own choices, we have nothing to atone for.

If there was.. you would have lost the only choice you truly had in this life. That is why He hides Himself from unbelievers.

But... there is no choice. You said so yourself. If we don't believe it is part of his plan. Why not reveal himself? There would still be those that reject him.

If God didn't program you to accept the attonement offered, then the 'implications' you alluded to are meaningless. Meaning we are free to accept or refuse as we see fit. (per your own admission)

Actually, it's just the opposite. If everything is part of God's plan, then there are people "programmed" to accept and deny his existence. We can't accept or refuse. We are all simply following his plan.

I am NOT formulating a question against the nature of your God. I'll make this very, very clear to you so it doesn't escape even you:
If the God of your bible purportedly acted on something physical, that is, committed to a course of action that had an effect on the physical world, then he just moved from "untestable bible's domain" to "testable, physical domain". Overlapping magisteria.
Therefore, it isn't beyond my authority to ask for evidence beyond that of the Bible to prove an extra-biblical event.

NOT if it is the same bible who recorded the very event being questioned.

Actually, I am justified in asking for evidence beyond the Bible if the event described supposedly happened in reality. Get it into your head that I am not questioning something that can only be commentated on by the bible, because the Bible has passed the border into the real world and is thus testable/verifiable.
It puts it well with in the same domain, in which God and the events surrounding His actions concerning His expressed will (pre law) have been established in the first place.
[/quote]
I am not questioning whether or not your bible says it happened. I am questioning whether it happened or not. Just because the actions are taken by your God doesn't mean they aren't testable if they crossed the line into an event you affirm occurred in the past.

you take away the bible to provide you an answer, you take away your right to question God. For without it you can not question Him nor any of his actions. (pre or post Law)

I am not questioning God or his actions. I am questioning the existence of prophets or people who said they saw "God" in the far past and believed that God to be your own. Seriously, it took this long for you to get that? I haven't moved the goalposts a single inch. Your perception of the goalposts is the problem.

The 'plan' was to put us in an enviorment free from the direct knoweledge of Him allowing us to live as our hearts would demand. Then offer attonement to anyone who earnestly sought after it. That's it. the rest is a direct consenquence of our (limited) choices in life.

You already said we don't have free will- err... freedom of choice, and the we are essentially slaves to sin. Either he planned it all, or we can choose. Which is it?

Because I know Death not to be the 'worst' thing that could happen to someone. that pain and suffering makes us who we are. that living a life of indulgences litterally Spoils (makes rotten) one very soul. I love God because He has carfully and thoughtfully carried me through many hardships and trials. Pain and suffering has given me perspective and wisdom beyond my station.

I'll bet the starving around the globe love him for his trials too. Your "trials" at least don't involve certain death, loss of loved ones at young ages, and a constant need for things you can't have.

Have you tried it?

I had an imaginary friend once, but he wasn't all powerful and I didn't expect him to help me with anything. I kept him to myself, and he only lasted a short time. If I believed him to love me and be powerful enough to help me with anything, I would have believed it impossible to get through suffering with a loving imaginary friend. Why? He wouldn't be loving.

As i said i made this thread because many of you have lost faith for unanswered prayers, and i wanted to establish what prayer actually was. The fact that you can read this entire thread and still call what amounts to a formal wishing cermony a 'traditional prayer' puts a doubt in my mind as to your general comperhensive skills. that is why i needed clarity to what you were actually refering to.

I clarified to avoid this... Not traditional, I said. This is simply what most people think of when they pray. Your version of prayer is indistinguishable from talking to yourself and yields no answer, ever.
Oh, and my comperhensive skills are just fine, thank you (whatever those are).

i contend for the dead it matters very little.

Well, I never thought- we agree. Neat.

indeed care to rephrase?

Your version of prayer is very much like a "no" to a prayer as defined by the average joe. Your prayers consist of "Please God, do what you were going to do in the first place. I love you, btw. Amen".
Regular prayer consists of "God, I know how selfish this is, but please cure my brother's leukemia. Amen"
See how a no to a "regular prayer" is the same as your prayer? Both serve no purpose. Both yield no result. Your prayer is absolutely meaningless, because nothing comes of it and it means nothing to a God that already has your path set out for you.

[Lion IRC]

One sees a lot of atheists talking about how God never answers prayers.

[The Grand Nudger]

If you remember "Sin Robot" was Skepsis' word, I corrected him and said Paul likened it to being a slave to sin.
Paul Says this in romans 7:13-20

And? You ran with it, sounded good to you. Figured it would be a good time to mention that it was complete bullshit.

Free will is not mentioned by name, for this is a greek construct of philosphy. We have been give freedom from the expressed will of God as i have said from the beginning. I have even said that this is the 'free will' the bible defines, and not the greek construct skepsis believed it to be. the first example of this freedom from the Expressed will of God was with Adam and eve.

Haven't I repeatedly said that I don;t give a shit how the bible defines things?

The monkey man time line is not my own. i have said from the beginning of that thread that one could insert whatever model of evolution you wish. i simply pointed to a false time line between the 7 literal days of creation and the fall of man. Also pointing out that the whole theory of evolution could neatly fit into this time.

Again, you ran with it. You know what Drich, if you want to make these claims start owning them. Thats how this works. You don;t get to wring your hands and say "I didn't say that" -especially when you did, every time you're pressed. You didn't point out any false timelines, you pointed out a timeline that didn't agree with you extra-biblical narrative. I'm even less convinced by your fantasy than I am by the fantasy in the bible, but for a guy that demands scriptural support or whether or not bears shit in the woods.... you seem pretty quick to abandon scripture when it suits you.

I have, about a dozen times in the orginal 48 pages of that post in this forum, and the 26 pages in the other forum. Just because you did not remember our first discussion nor did you bother to do any catching up does not mean Nothing hasn't been said.

There you again, repeating your claim to have offered either instead of actually offering either.

This is a road you and your goal post moving friends can travel together. For as i have explained many many times. If you have engauged in a biblical discussion where you ask biblically based questions, then bible becomes it's own crediable source.

'

You chose the road. If you want to reconcile the biblical narrative with evolution, or any part of reality whatsoever, you're going to have to explain why you can't even attempt to do so except by fantasy. Your personal narrative combines elements of the biblical narrative with what must appear to you to be very clever extra-biblical excuses. You need the flood, there was no flood (just as one shining example). No goalposts have been shifted you cretin, you invited the criticism and invoked the accuracy of the narrative in the first place. You know what, this garbage has gone beyond any reasonable expectations of debate or discourse. I smell troll.

[Cato]

One sees a lot of atheists talking about how God never answers prayers.

One also sees a tribe of christians belching incantations skyward every Sunday, often in groups, with no effect.

The primary distinction is that Christian women are afforded, and take advantage of, the opportunity to secretly chastise other women in the congregation regarding their fashion. Atheist and deist women have more important discussions.

[Anomalocaris]

Although In fairness you should grant that the fashion senses of those women so forsaken as to be in a congregation are typically eminently worthy of chastisement.

[Skepsis]

Haven't I repeatedly said that I don;t give a shit how the bible defines things?

I never understood entirely; does he mean to say that free will is defied as he explains because the bible says so, and that free will has no other meaning?
I took it in a different way: I thought he was saying that there was biblical free will and, well, real free will.