There is a big difference between...

[fr0d0]

A hard life can be happy... but lacks a great deal of substance, therefore its quality is nowhere near that of the easy life. The difference is that between a decent 2 page essay, and a good thousand page novel.

Indeed. But to say the former is less valid and that they should reason not to have kids because their life is unworthy of humans is perverse.

[Violet]

You obviously don't only mean dirt poor when you say my parents are selfish for having me and then in another breath say they're not the poverty level you're talking about. Don't contradict yourself and refrain from insulting people and practically saying they shouldn't exist in the process. You almost got a warning from that and not by me.

There are different levels of poverty, not just one. Furthermore, when you're talking about poverty levels so low people can barely eat, then you're talking about an entirely different problem. Most people at that level don't even have access to abortions, and then of course you have various churches telling them condoms are evil.

Then your parents were well off enough to support you, weren't they? The way you told me initially made me think that you were unable to receive health care because of your monetary status. I am sorry... but that speaks of poverty to me. I understand that there are multiple levels of poverty, and the deeper down the levels they are: the more I vouch for the need of not having children. Even many rich people would do well to wait until they have had a shot at life, before they try to teach another how to live a good life.

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A hard life can be happy... but lacks a great deal of substance, therefore its quality is nowhere near that of the easy life. The difference is that between a decent 2 page essay, and a good thousand page novel.

Indeed. But to say the former is less valid and that they should reason not to have kids because their life is unworthy of humans is perverse.

It is only perverse to be able to live a better life for the sake of your family... and to impatiently create a family at your status instead.

[Edwardo Piet]

Sae, I say a foetus isn't interchangeable with a baby once the foetus has developed past the stage of 'a bunch of cells', into the stage of having feeling. A baby of any age and development in the womb, isn't all the same - the age and development matters. There's a difference between 1 day pregnant and almost 9 months!

Right before the baby is born, it's just as much of a baby for instance. So where do you draw the line? I personally draw it at the point whenever the baby can feel pain or suffer in any way. That's what matters to me on this issue. But - where that point exactly is I don't know. But, as I said - I know there's a difference between 1 day's pregnant and nearly 9 months!

EvF

[fr0d0]

which is why i say that one must be absolutly secure before they have children.

No that's very wrong Sae. No one can ever know. For most people they never ever will be secure enough to have children. They do however have every reason to have children if they will love that child.

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It is only perverse to be able to live a better life for the sake of your family... and to impatiently create a family at your status instead.

You speak like love doesn't ever come into it.

[Violet]

Sae, I say a foetus isn't interchangeable with a baby once the foetus has developed past the stage of 'a bunch of cells', into the stage of having feeling. A baby of any age and development in the womb, isn't all the same - the age and development matters. There's a difference between 1 day pregnant and almost 9 months!

Right before the baby is born, it's just as much of a baby for instance. So where do you draw the line? I personally draw it at the point whenever the baby can feel pain or suffer in any way. That's what matters to me on this issue. But - where that point exactly is I don't know. But, as I said - I know there's a difference between 1 day's pregnant and nearly 9 months!

EvF

I draw the line at which baby and fetus are no longer interchangeable... at the birth. There is a great difference between 1 day and 9 months: time. One is worth more than the other, because the mother has carried it longer... and the mother eats more, and is less active during some of the later later months, therefore adding some monetary value to the developing baby. It is very silly to carry a baby for more than 6-7 months, and then choose to abort it. So silly, I vehemently recommend against it.

Life is painful... letting a person experience the pain of life is little different to me than giving brief pain followed by immediate peace. If the life being raised will endure less pain in its existence because of your teachings and economic stability... That child will have lived happily. That child should only be aborted if the mother does not feel ready for it.

If, however, you are not ready to teach a child, and your economy is not very predictable and is not good enough to comfortably support them... That child has much less likelihood of living happily. That child should be aborted because the mother is not ready for it.

Why a person would wait any more than 4-5 months into pregnancy is, to be quite honest: beyond me...

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which is why i say that one must be absolutly secure before they have children.

No that's very wrong Sae. No one can ever know. For most people they never ever will be secure enough to have children. They do however have every reason to have children if they will love that child.

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It is only perverse to be able to live a better life for the sake of your family... and to impatiently create a family at your status instead.

You speak like love doesn't ever come into it.

Of course we can never be 100% sure... of anything. However, we can be sure beyond all reasonable doubt. Interestingly... we have a population crisis at hand... Most people should NOT be having children right now...

If they love their unborn: their unborn has value. Many of us probably have the right of having children... but also many of us probably shouldn't be having them I'd like to fix the population being a problem (by finding more efficient ways of producing food, slowly terraforming other habitable zones, and increasing the land in which people can live by several methods)... so that i would see nothing wrong with having children (Assuming you are a good parent with a paycheck that can support a family).

How I think of it is this: If the would-be parents truly love the children they will have... I should expect them to love their children enough to wait on having them.

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As a side note: do you all realize how difficult it is to respond to 5 people at once?

[Edwardo Piet]

Sae:
What I'm saying is that the time issue for me, is down to the fact that at some point a foetus develops the ability to feel, and more specifically - to feel pain. And to be clear, I actually specifically said almost 9 months, not just 9 months, because what I was trying to clarify was that if a baby were to be aborted very shortly before birth - that's a whole lot worse than if conception has just happened and the foetus is basically just a small cluster of cells. So what I think to myself is "Where should I draw the line?", and I think "Well, why I feel aborting a foetus almost ready to be born is wrong, is mostly down to the fact that it is just as much of a baby as if it was born - which means it's capable of feeling, and feeling pain, capable of suffering."

That's what makes it a baby rather than just a foetus, in my mind. It would be horrific to make a baby suffer. So it is for that reason that I draw the line at: Whenever the baby is developed enough to feel pain. I'm not just thinking about the mother, because there's a point at when a foetus should be considered a proper baby, and a human being, (it doesn't magically become human the moment it's born) - and I draw that line at the point when it can feel pain and can suffer.

EvF

[Violet]

I agree with your point of not aborting shortly before birth... unless its life would be absolute hell if allowed to be born (a parent is known to be abusive, almost no income, starving, and will almost certainly die a longer and more painful death than an abortion.)

It is indeed worse, and I do not disagree to that point. But to disallow it to be aborted just because it can feel pain? That I do not agree with. I think it horrific to hurt any creature intentionally... but in some cases it is necessary... It is sometimes a necessary evil to abort a child... but do not ever mistake that for a good thing.

So lucky for me then, that I never have to choose to abort, because I can't even have them to begin with Imagine how many hypothetical children I could have helped construct had this been otherwise

Ps: someone should probably split this thread.

[Edwardo Piet]

Sae:
Well, I think the issue is certainly one of when the foetus can suffer and feel pain. I'm not saying there's no exceptions, but I say the more the baby matures and the more intense it's ability to feel is, the more that it would become like murder to abort it. Because the mother of course wouldn't kill a newborn baby - that would be murder, and it is from the point that it first develops suffering onwards that it gets closer to how it is at birth - and the more reluctant the mother should be to have the abortion IMO.

There is indeed no actual exact cut off point; it's all gradual. But I'd say it's totally safe before the baby can feel pain at all, in any way, shape, or form. Safe for the baby that is - how the mother feels about it is still an issue then and depends. But IMO it is once the foetus is capable of feeling pain, that it should be decided how moral or immoral it would be if the mother were to make the decision to abort.

EvF

[Violet]

That I agree with Of course, I feel the same about the food we eat... unlike the vast majority of people who are not empathic enough to feel for their food

However, the choice remains the mother's at the end of 9 months. Though I'd rather she decided to have it after so much otherwise wasted carrying: the mother would have to be very immature to be aborting at 9 months... and almost certainly couldn't have raised the child well.

[Eilonnwy]

EvF, I think it's better to say there's a difference when the fetus is viable, meaning when it can survive on it's own.

Saerules, I'm done explaining the circumstances of my childhood to you, since you're quick to jump to conclusions about my parents feel you can judge their decision to have children as mature adults. It's quite arrogant and insulting to say my parents are selfish for having me, so please do not do it again. I'd wondered if you'd have the sense to even apologize. Apparently not.

I think the problem here is you are considering this in terms of a perfect world, and everyone is considering it in terms of a realistic world and how things really are. You cannot control people and tell them how to make decisions. The world will never work according to what you think is sensible, pragmatic, and realistic. You don't have the right to impose your standards on what makes a family, no matter how right you think you are. Grow up a little more and maybe then you'll understand.

At the core, I agree with what you are trying to say. People should have children when they are ready and financially sound. We should educate people on contraceptives. However once the pregnancy happens we are dealing with something completely different and then it doesn't become an easy choice of what's financially sound. It becomes a personal decision that is never easy whichever way you go. I don't understand why you can't recognize that. Maybe because you haven't experienced first hand what it's like? If you care for unborn life so little and have no problem aborting it because it's inconvenient, then that's your choice. That is what it means to be pro-choice. I am pro-choice. Despite all this I still don't have to like abortion and given my own choice I have the right NOT to abort. And you don't have the right to insist otherwise, just as I have no right to insist you keep a child. I don't care what your sound reasoning for aborting is. It's MY choice, and I have always been consistent with my stance on this. All I've ever said is it's better to prevent the pregnancy from ever happening so women don't have to go through the pain of abortions, because whatever you may think, they are NOT easy, whatever your reasoning may be.

I only shared the story of my two sisters to show both perspectives, because I thought it was important to understand how complicated and uneasy a choice it is. I do not wish to talk about my family anymore.