Hell, or rather my brief experience of it.

[Minimalist]

Uh-huh.

[Drich]

You are charging into battle half cocked, which makes you come off like a petty fool.

Says the poster who had a bad dream and thinks that proves anything.

This 'proof' was for me alone.

I shared this so you can know God is also willing to give you the same effort in 'proof' if you will simply follow the path He has set before you in Luke 11.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't think that this actually happened at all Drich. Just so we're clear here...this personal "proof" (apparently meant only for you...and apparently only meaningful to you) is such that you won't be able to demonstrate that it even occurred.....and this reinforces another "something" which you are incapable of demonstrating.....so it's turtles all the way down isn't it?

[Cyberman]

This 'proof' was for me alone.

I shared this so you can know God is also willing to give you the same effort in 'proof' if you will simply follow the path He has set before you in Luke 11.

Wouldn't that be what they call... preaching?

[DeistPaladin]

This 'proof' was for me alone.

So you keep saying and sorry, no it's not.

Maybe if we lived thousands of years ago where people thought dreams were signs from the gods, you might be excused for having such irrationally superstitious convictions. As it stands now, claiming that something so easily explained as a bad dream as evidence for anything, even personal evidence for personally held beliefs, is, at best, childish.

That this thread has gone on for 17 pages is a testament only to the patience of atheists trying to reason with you.

[Drich]

[quote='Minimalist' pid='362315' dateline='1352826718']



Uh-huh.
[/quote]

193__?? Or is it your opinion that after nearly 40 documented assissnation attempts Hitler had on his life, he would be caught alone by a poparatzzo leaving his church mid/late war?

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[quote='DeistPaladin' pid='362323' dateline='1352827612']
[quote]So you keep saying and sorry, no it's not. [/quote]

[quote]Maybe if we lived thousands of years ago where people thought dreams were signs from the gods, you might be excused for having such irrationally superstitious convictions. As it stands now, claiming that something so easily explained as a bad dream as evidence for anything, even personal evidence for personally held beliefs, is, at best, childish.

That this thread has gone on for 17 pages is a testament only to the patience of atheists trying to reason with you.[/quote] again 1/2 cocked. You have no Idea what is being discussed here. It's not the fact that i experienced a dream or a vision. It is the content that I was not privy to before this dream that Provides the proof I need to know this experience was from God.

[Darkstar]

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So Yahweh isn't you god, and only Jesus, or do you mean both, as in the trinity?

The Jewish understanding of God/Yahweh's physical being has one consumed by the glory of God for their unresolved/unattoned sin. Christians do not have that problem as our sins have been attoned for. So in a sence, no we do not have the same understanding of God.

So they see a beam of light and conclude god? That would be a pretty flimsy argument for god. Now, you mean you saw Jesus, which is where I was confused because 'god' usually refers to Yahweh.

In my Dream/Vision I looked Christ in the eyes (my oppertunity to spit in one of them) I did not see what you would see when you physically look into another persons eyes. I saw and felt the potiential love He offered, I saw my short commings and everything I did that prevented me for eternaly experiencing that Love. (in an instant)

The seperation from that Love is what made Hell unbearable. His eyes contained my final judgement, to which their was absolutly nothing for me to say. Let alone spit. This judgement lead me to understand the reason we have been given this life. So when we face that judgement we know where our hearts truly stand. Their isn't any doubt in your mind why or where you should spend eternity.

So no shapless pillar of light that i can not look directly at nor really have a sence of how or where it is comming.. God is not just a 'presents.' as the muslim god is. (which btw corresponds to some descriptions or incarnations of lucifer the son of light, or bright and morning star)

---

Okay, I'll look past how the physical viewing of Jesus/god went, as it apparently didn't contradict any rules. Question: If you wanted to spit in god's eye, then why was being seperated from him painful?

---

How do you know this 'knowledge' is anything more than a delusion?

10 years of off and on research.

Do you have any outside sources to support the version of hell you experienced?

The Bible supports my experience of Hell if you look into the orginal Greek and Hebrew texts. Before this dream I had no idea that the Jews were given to one understanding of Hell, and Christ expanded on that view for the whole of Christianity. I only ever understood Hell to be a literal lake of fire or a series of caves where a red horned devil ruled the underworld. I know alot of people understand this to be hell because of all of the various books and art work commissioned by the middle ages church, but the bible has little to no support of this understanding of hell.

This understanding is a mixture of Greek mythos and passages from the NT. It takes alot of study and a commitment to what the bible actually says to get past this idea. I was given this understanding long before I could contextually back up this revelation with the bible.
Because i know this to be true, i know my experience to be genuine.

---

(bolding added)
I guess that "a lot" of study can be done in twenty minutes, because I rejected the cavernlike hell in favor of a place of pure fire (whether metaphorical for pain or not) after about that much research on the subject. (Note that said reseacrh and conclusion occurred prior to this thread)

You weren't really A/S/King, now were you?

why because i was mad at God? Don't you think God knows when you are mad or when you are pretending to approach Him with some false idea of holiness?? Bottom line I was sincere in my anger, while many who approach him in respect are not. I may not have been as respectful as I should have been, but looking back I can honestly say I was not the first to 'approach' God this way. Many 'wrestle' with God before yeilding.

So...why doesn't god also use shock tactics (perhaps even more so) on the insincere?

---

Why would you be bitter at something you didn't believe existed, and why would such a being [briefly] send you to hell when you were seeking him?

I was mad or bitter at the whole christian process. I wanted to know if their was indeed a God. By then My mother found him and I was hearing stories about how he had touched other lives. I went through the motions and found nothing, so that made me mad. Mad at everyone for BSing me because at that point. I knew their could Not be a real God because i had done everything they had done and I got nothing out of it.

What made it worse is the girl i went to church for left me for some guy (who looked like me but had a new [at the time new] Corvette) I had made a "deal" with her and her 'God', that If I could live happily ever after, i would do all the church stuff get baptized the confess the whole nine yards.. Even though I did not believe God was a real thing (simply nothing to say to me He was) I knew she was and she believed so at the time it was enough for me.

---

Sounds like some other atheist deconversion stories...but a bad dream reconvrted you?

It took the break up of the girl for me to truly seek out God. I sought God for a selfish reason, but an honest one. In doing so I did activly follow the promise Christ out lines in Luke 11. I earnestly Ask, Sought, and knocked or rather kicked at the 'door,' and DEMANDED to be let in. So I was. Just like the persistent neighbor was given what I wanted. I was given EXACTLY what I wanted. (an oppertunity to spit in the eye of God.) I also got to experience what my efforts merrited.

Their is a much easier way. One that is not as wet the bed tramatic.. But I guess that depends on you and how hard your heart is.

And for those who want to believe and desperately seek god to find nothing? Were they doing it wrong?

---

I was going to ask you what you meant by 'photoshopped', and then I realized you meant an actual nazi propoganda poster. I wasn't trying to potray that image as a bona fide propoganda poster, I was simply showing the quote. Now, real religious propoganda looks something like this:

Again up until July 1 1941 the nazi's embraced Christianity. It wasn't till the eve of "Phase 3 of the Final Soultion" that Hitler became a god unto himself, thereby requiring all of the Nazi leadership to cast off their old religious affilations and swear aliegance to him. So the question becomes when was your poster printed.

Why? Because it is not unreasonable to say that Nazis loved christianity and used it in the beginning of their campain, (1933 to 1938, in '38 the started the seperation from the church) but as time progressed, and Hitler's plan for germany unfolded. God was no where to be found.

---

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/

---

Title: “Resurrection”

Explanation: A worried Jew watches a column of Storm Troopers giving the Nazi salute to a roadside crucifix. This is an interesting attempt to appeal to a Christian audience, and also of using Christian language in a new context. The suggestion is that, somehow, Christ has been resurrected in the Nazi movement. (#13/1929)

Caption: “One can do anything to those Goyim. Our people crucified their Christ on the cross, and we do a great business on his birthday....”

Explanation: A Christmas cartoon urging Germans to avoid Jewish shops was standard. (#51/1929)

However, these are prior to 1938.

---

---

These are post 1933.

Headline: The Mobilization of the People

The cartoon shows a photograph of a Jew captioned “Satan.” Streicher regularly used the old religious argument that the Jews were in league with the Devil. This issue appeared as the last German troops in Stalingrad surrendered.

February 1943 (Issue #9)

This is the cover to the most infamous issue of Der Stürmer, the 1934 issue accusing Jews of practicing ritual murder to secure the blood of Christians to use in Jewish religious rituals. The headline reads: Jewish Murder Plan against Gentile Humanity Revealed. The issue actually got banned by the Nazis after it had been out for a while, not because of anti-Semitic content, but because it compared alleged Jewish ritual murder with the Christian sacrament of communion. A full English translation of the issue was published in the United States in 1976 by a group in the “Christian Identity” tradition.

Special Issue: May 1934

But there is also:

Title: Priests and Pastors

This was another anti-Christian story. On an altar of the Star of David stands the Inquisition and and hammer and sickle, with gaves and skulls in the background.

November 1936 (Issue #46)

---

I suppose it makes sense. Hitler understood how easily religion [not necessarilly Christianity] could be used to manipulate people, and used it to his advantage.

[Drich]

I don't think that this actually happened at all Drich. Just so we're clear here...this personal "proof" (apparently meant only for you...and apparently only meaningful to you) is such that you won't be able to demonstrate that it even occurred.....and this reinforces another "something" which you are incapable of demonstrating.....so it's turtles all the way down isn't it?

By design yes.

For if you had undenyable 'proof' then the choice you were given in this life would no longer be a 'choice.' Self preservation would demand that you grovel for your eternal existance, and you would spend the rest of your life pretending to be something your not. (Just as I did before my gf left me) As it is now you have an oppertunity to show yourself just who or rather what type of person you are. That is why we are told to Ask, Seek, Knock to exit the fog we are born into.

[The Grand Nudger]

Self preservation demands that I do not grovel. Maybe yours demands that you do, but that says more about your "self" than my "self"..now don't it? I've had opportunities, none of which involved ghosts, and I'm satisfied with the type of person I am, thanks.

Maybe you should nail your pamphlets to a door somewhere, eh?

(you won't be winning any converts amongst people who are satisfied with themselves with this sad shit Drich, refine your approach and shoot for something a little higher than the lowest common denominator?)

---

Speaking of your missionary efforts. I've noticed that you -have- become a great deal more overt with your sermons and pleas of late. Can I take this to mean that you have reached the frayed ends of the product you had to offer and this is the endgame?

(I applaud your longevity btw, little surprised you're still here, not surprised that you would stick around mind you...just astonished that you haven't been banned yet. I mean look at this thread title for ffs. Boils down to "Hey guys, lemme tell you about hell" - with which you follow - "seek the lord and be saved"...lol )

[Drich]

Question: If you wanted to spit in god's eye, then why was being seperated from him painful?

Once I was in the place of my judgement, my bitterness was gone. It was replace by fear. Fear because just by being their I knew I was screwed. Then when I first looked into the eyes of Christ I felt for a split second completeness and peace, coupled with a love that i can not even hope to describe. As soon as I understood what was going to be lost the shadow of my unresolved sin emptied me, and the love that I knew only for the breifest of moments was completely gone. I wanted that back more than anything I have ever wanted prior or since...

We were literally designed to be loved that way. To have it and to loose it is devistating... Now add insult to injury and be cast into a all consuming emptyness where you know you will NEVER be that complete again, and it is enough to make you say anything, even though you know you do not deserve what has been taken from you.

I guess that "a lot" of study can be done in twenty minutes, because I rejected the cavernlike hell in favor of a place of pure fire (whether metaphorical for pain or not) after about that much research on the subject. (Note that said reseacrh and conclusion occurred prior to this thread)

Where the time spent comes in is that you have to reconsile the two descriptions of Hell. What the Jews were given to understand is Just as True as what Christianity was told of hell. On the surface these two contradict.

So...why doesn't god also use shock tactics (perhaps even more so) on the insincere?

I don't know. Maybe He knows who is worth saving and who is not. Maybe the insincere aren't worth saving for some reason.

Sounds like some other atheist deconversion stories...but a bad dream reconvrted you?

I did not know God before this dream/vision.

And for those who want to believe and desperately seek god to find nothing?

Unless you fall into the catagory of Romans 9 We are promised to always find something. We may not find what we want but we will find an oppertunity. If we are faith to what we have been given we will be given more.

Were they doing it wrong?

Did they follow the model provided in Luke 11?

---

Title: “Resurrection”

Explanation: A worried Jew watches a column of Storm Troopers giving the Nazi salute to a roadside crucifix. This is an interesting attempt to appeal to a Christian audience, and also of using Christian language in a new context. The suggestion is that, somehow, Christ has been resurrected in the Nazi movement. (#13/1929)

Caption: “One can do anything to those Goyim. Our people crucified their Christ on the cross, and we do a great business on his birthday....”

Explanation: A Christmas cartoon urging Germans to avoid Jewish shops was standard. (#51/1929)

However, these are prior to 1938.

---

---

These are post 1933.

Headline: The Mobilization of the People

The cartoon shows a photograph of a Jew captioned “Satan.” Streicher regularly used the old religious argument that the Jews were in league with the Devil. This issue appeared as the last German troops in Stalingrad surrendered.

February 1943 (Issue #9)

This is the cover to the most infamous issue of Der Stürmer, the 1934 issue accusing Jews of practicing ritual murder to secure the blood of Christians to use in Jewish religious rituals. The headline reads: Jewish Murder Plan against Gentile Humanity Revealed. The issue actually got banned by the Nazis after it had been out for a while, not because of anti-Semitic content, but because it compared alleged Jewish ritual murder with the Christian sacrament of communion. A full English translation of the issue was published in the United States in 1976 by a group in the “Christian Identity” tradition.

Special Issue: May 1934

But there is also:

Title: Priests and Pastors

This was another anti-Christian story. On an altar of the Star of David stands the Inquisition and and hammer and sickle, with gaves and skulls in the background.

November 1936 (Issue #46)

---

I suppose it makes sense. Hitler understood how easily religion [not necessarilly Christianity] could be used to manipulate people, and used it to his advantage.
[/quote]

???so???