Jesus, Least Fit Moral Judge

[FallentoReason]

On my word I could say the same thing with the oppsite result. If you make a statement it is up to you to defend it when challanged. You sir, have been challenged. Otherwise know your statement has been rightfully dismissed.

You have a valid point sir. Let's kick the dead horse then, shall we?

Ephesians

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The language and style are different. Ephesians contains 40 new words, e.g. 1:3 "heavenly places"; "family, or fatherhood" (3:15). 1:19 has four different words for "power"; Eph & Col use a different word for "reconcile" from Paul's word (Col 1:20, 22; Eph 2:16). And they both use many very long sentences, e.g. 1:3-14; 1:15-23; 3:1-7; 4:11-16; 6:14-20. Also Col 1:9-20.
Eph copies Col at many places. Eph has 155 verses, 73 of which are copied from Col: e.g. Eph 4:1-2 = Col 3:12-13. Eph 5:19-2 = Col 3:16-17, Eph 6:21-22 = Col 4:7-8.
Eph takes many key ideas from Col. Wisdom, mystery. The word of truth. Gospel of salvation. Saints of God.
Eph also refers to most of the other letters of Paul. In many ways it seems like a summary of Paul's ideas, written by a disciple of his, and brought up to date for the Church of his own time.
Metaphors, or illustrations in Paul are turned into actual objective realities in Eph (and sometimes in Col also). E.g. faith, gospel, word of God, reconciliation, salvation, our resurrection and glorification, the Church as the Body of Christ, Minister, Saints of God.
Eph shows that the Church is becoming an advanced and powerful universal institution (rather like the Church today). In Paul's time there was no universal Church in that sense, but only informal gatherings of individual believing communities.
Eph contains no mention of charismatic gifts. It looks as if they have disappeared from the church, to be replaced by ordained ministers.
Eph shows Jesus acting on his own account and by his own authority. In Paul's letters, Jesus always acts on God's behalf and with God's authority.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_...d_epistles

This is the sort of stuff we're dealing with. I'm not going to go through every last detail because the evidence is too much for me to be passing it all on.

[Gambit]

You do realize Drich that the "work" you do here only serves to further damage the reputation of your precious savior. You do realize this right?

Jesus (the version that you believe walked the earth) has got to absolutely despise you by now.
Your responses are borderline nauseating at this point. I honestly think you have done far more to discredit your religion than I did in studying it's true history.

I second that; he practically turned me into a satanist (Of the 14 year old emo variety). I don't even believe in Satan, I just wanted to worship someone who was infinitely kinder than Yawnway.

[Norfolk And Chance]

I just think he's has a ridiculously inflated sense of the importance of his own opinion.

[Drich]

On my word I could say the same thing with the oppsite result. If you make a statement it is up to you to defend it when challanged. You sir, have been challenged. Otherwise know your statement has been rightfully dismissed.

You have a valid point sir. Let's kick the dead horse then, shall we?

Ephesians

---

The language and style are different. Ephesians contains 40 new words, e.g. 1:3 "heavenly places"; "family, or fatherhood" (3:15). 1:19 has four different words for "power"; Eph & Col use a different word for "reconcile" from Paul's word (Col 1:20, 22; Eph 2:16). And they both use many very long sentences, e.g. 1:3-14; 1:15-23; 3:1-7; 4:11-16; 6:14-20. Also Col 1:9-20.
Eph copies Col at many places. Eph has 155 verses, 73 of which are copied from Col: e.g. Eph 4:1-2 = Col 3:12-13. Eph 5:19-2 = Col 3:16-17, Eph 6:21-22 = Col 4:7-8.
Eph takes many key ideas from Col. Wisdom, mystery. The word of truth. Gospel of salvation. Saints of God.
Eph also refers to most of the other letters of Paul. In many ways it seems like a summary of Paul's ideas, written by a disciple of his, and brought up to date for the Church of his own time.
Metaphors, or illustrations in Paul are turned into actual objective realities in Eph (and sometimes in Col also). E.g. faith, gospel, word of God, reconciliation, salvation, our resurrection and glorification, the Church as the Body of Christ, Minister, Saints of God.
Eph shows that the Church is becoming an advanced and powerful universal institution (rather like the Church today). In Paul's time there was no universal Church in that sense, but only informal gatherings of individual believing communities.
Eph contains no mention of charismatic gifts. It looks as if they have disappeared from the church, to be replaced by ordained ministers.
Eph shows Jesus acting on his own account and by his own authority. In Paul's letters, Jesus always acts on God's behalf and with God's authority.

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_...d_epistles

This is the sort of stuff we're dealing with. I'm not going to go through every last detail because the evidence is too much for me to be passing it all on.

..So you want to drop a bomb and run? You want to provide this information and not discuss it? If this is the case then feel free to say what ever you want and I will treat it the same as Minnie's body of work.

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You do realize Drich that the "work" you do here only serves to further damage the reputation of your precious savior. You do realize this right?

Jesus (the version that you believe walked the earth) has got to absolutely despise you by now.
Your responses are borderline nauseating at this point. I honestly think you have done far more to discredit your religion than I did in studying it's true history.

I second that; he practically turned me into a satanist (Of the 14 year old emo variety). I don't even believe in Satan, I just wanted to worship someone who was infinitely kinder than Yawnway.

Whether you be a lukewarm Christian or an out and out satainist, one's fate remains the same.

Again, i think the worst fate one can experience is to think he is saved and finds out he is not. I am trying to help you make a firm desision as to where you stand with God. So that either A) you can go to your judgement with the full knoweledge of what you have decided for yourself, or B) repent. Your actual choice is not my concern, helping you choose is.

[Brian37]

On my word I could say the same thing with the oppsite result. If you make a statement it is up to you to defend it when challanged. You sir, have been challenged. Otherwise know your statement has been rightfully dismissed.

You have a valid point sir. Let's kick the dead horse then, shall we?

Ephesians

---

The language and style are different. Ephesians contains 40 new words, e.g. 1:3 "heavenly places"; "family, or fatherhood" (3:15). 1:19 has four different words for "power"; Eph & Col use a different word for "reconcile" from Paul's word (Col 1:20, 22; Eph 2:16). And they both use many very long sentences, e.g. 1:3-14; 1:15-23; 3:1-7; 4:11-16; 6:14-20. Also Col 1:9-20.
Eph copies Col at many places. Eph has 155 verses, 73 of which are copied from Col: e.g. Eph 4:1-2 = Col 3:12-13. Eph 5:19-2 = Col 3:16-17, Eph 6:21-22 = Col 4:7-8.
Eph takes many key ideas from Col. Wisdom, mystery. The word of truth. Gospel of salvation. Saints of God.
Eph also refers to most of the other letters of Paul. In many ways it seems like a summary of Paul's ideas, written by a disciple of his, and brought up to date for the Church of his own time.
Metaphors, or illustrations in Paul are turned into actual objective realities in Eph (and sometimes in Col also). E.g. faith, gospel, word of God, reconciliation, salvation, our resurrection and glorification, the Church as the Body of Christ, Minister, Saints of God.
Eph shows that the Church is becoming an advanced and powerful universal institution (rather like the Church today). In Paul's time there was no universal Church in that sense, but only informal gatherings of individual believing communities.
Eph contains no mention of charismatic gifts. It looks as if they have disappeared from the church, to be replaced by ordained ministers.
Eph shows Jesus acting on his own account and by his own authority. In Paul's letters, Jesus always acts on God's behalf and with God's authority.

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_...d_epistles

This is the sort of stuff we're dealing with. I'm not going to go through every last detail because the evidence is too much for me to be passing it all on.

Why do you insist on hiding your tactic of circular reasoning? Are you hoping we wont notice?

Unlike you, I am not going to hide my tactic because I am not afraid of my tactic being debunked.

See if you can spot the pattern.

"The Koran says so therefore Allah is the one true god"
"The Torah and Talmud say so Yahweh is the one true god"
"Hindus say so therefor Vishnu is real"

It's called circular reasoning. You won't buy it from other people with different pet deities, so don't expect us to swallow your circular reasoning by quoting the bible to prove the bible.

You quoted the bible. So what. People of different religions also quote their books and traditions as proof their gods exist, the ones you rightfully reject. We merely reject one more deity than you do. Try understanding that and you will understand why circular reasoning does not work.

Ooops, sorry. Just realized what I did. Ok, theists, my argument still stands about circular reasoning.

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Dirich if you don't want others debunking the bible then don't argue it yourself. But our argument is still that everyone argues for their god/s, and you are merely one of many. No one has a patent for any deity claim and no one will win a Nobel Prize in god of the gaps. You wont, Muslims wont, Hindu's wont, Jews wont.......ect ect ect ect.

[Ryantology]

I am trying to help you make a firm desision as to where you stand with God.

We all stand in same place with God. It is exactly the same place in which we stand with Mickey Mouse, Harry Potter and the Super Mario Bros.

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Actually no. God allowed it to happen Adam made it possiable.

Actually, yes. The conditions for the original sin were put into place by God. He made the tree from which they weren't supposed to eat, and he made Eve gullible. He also made the serpent who charmed her. Didn't God make everything?

No I agree. For Sin allows Choice. For if there was no sin there would only be the Expressed Will of God. With sin we have been given the ablity to choose God's expressed will or our own.

Why were we given that ability, when the Bible makes it clear that God hates it when we express our own will? Why would he give us the option to disobey if he didn't want us to disobey, and would hand down harsh punishments for disobedience?

That's like putting one training wheel on your kid's bike, and blaming him when he falls over.

Again by orginal design we were without sin. God gave us the choice to sin in the garden, and outside of the garden He gives us the choice of redemption. We did not always have sin, but we have always been given a choice.

If God gave us that choice, then it can only he his fault that we choose it.

When you you guys understand? The point is not to avoid sin, but to seek attonement for it.

Why should we atone for something we can't avoid doing? Why should we be sorry to God when it's his fault we're made this way?

Again no we were orginally designed to be perfect, and we were for some time. We were designed to choose to either be with God or eternally seperated from him.

If a design fails, by definition it is not perfect. If God is perfect, then the failure of humanity was intentional.

In order to choose we must have options. in this life we have been given the ablity to choose God's will for us or to remain apart from God. Don't think of it as sin in the traditional sense. Your choice to remain away from God is what this life and subsequently sin is all about. Sin is not nessarily evil, is is a willful expression to be outside of what God wants for you. At it's core Sin is a choice or option given to us.

Why should I be sorry for breaking arbitrary rules? Why should I want a relationship with a God who makes rules I can't follow and expects me to atone for it?

It is, what it is. Who am I to hide from or try and excuse what God has done? If He wanted this stuff to be unknown then He certainly could have lost the records long before I came along. No, this stuff is in there for a reason. That reason is to help you 'good' people to make a choice about God. In order to make a choice you must have a complete understanding of His nature. The only question is will you see how trivial judging God by a 'moral' standard is, and seek to understand why He did what He did, or will you stand behind the morality that allows you to live your lives justifing the way you want to live, and use it to condemn God?

I judge God by 'moral' standards because I see no reason to accept your assumption that God's standards are better than mine.

[Brian37]

I am trying to help you make a firm desision as to where you stand with God.

No you are not. You are setting us up in your own mind so you can have some false sense of superiority.

And as he already stated rightfully, we put your comic book work of fiction in with all other myths.

[Hoc est Corpus]

I think the problem with this argument is that you are boxing God into a time frame. You are saying there is evil in the world - why doesn't God put an end to it? We are, however, assuming that God is real, and that he says he is who he says he is. This means that God has created space-time itself, and he is outside of time. I would argue that because God is outside of time, from God's point of view evil entered the universe and he defeated it at the same "time". How can you judge God while only looking at the past/present?

[Drich]

I am trying to help you make a firm desision as to where you stand with God.

No you are not. You are setting us up in your own mind so you can have some false sense of superiority.

How could this be true if i have openly admitted to be as sinful as anyone here?

I have said this at least 15 times in this thread. The only difference between any of you an me is i sought the attonemnt offered by Christ. That however does not make me any better or more deserving. Just compliant.

[Ryantology]

It has nothing to do with time. How can evil exist unless God makes evil?