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RE: Why would any woman want to be Christian?
March 9, 2013 at 2:27 pm
(March 9, 2013 at 2:16 pm)EGross Wrote: (March 9, 2013 at 2:06 pm)John V Wrote: The father gets the bride-price whether he gives the daughter to the man or not:
Exodus 22
16 “If a man entices a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall surely pay the bride-price for her to be his wife. 17 If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the bride-price of virgins.
So, money has been taken out of the father's decision, and he is free to decide whther the man is a creep or not.
Yes, the man is being punished for ruining a future sale, and has to pay a price (which, based on the various commandments, will vary, depending if she is a virgin, a widow (who may or may not be a virgin), a divorced woman, or the daughter of a Kohen.) The courts will decide and award the affected party (the father, not the girl), that money. In this case it specifically says the price for a virgin.
Quote:Given that she is now ruined goods, the father can decide, not the girl, if it is in HIS best interest to give her over to the creep and get the full amount
It says he gets the full amount either way.
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RE: Why would any woman want to be Christian?
March 9, 2013 at 2:42 pm
(This post was last modified: March 9, 2013 at 2:46 pm by EGross.)
(March 9, 2013 at 2:27 pm)John V Wrote: (March 9, 2013 at 2:16 pm)EGross Wrote: Yes, the man is being punished for ruining a future sale, and has to pay a price (which, based on the various commandments, will vary, depending if she is a virgin, a widow (who may or may not be a virgin), a divorced woman, or the daughter of a Kohen.) The courts will decide and award the affected party (the father, not the girl), that money. In this case it specifically says the price for a virgin.
Quote:Given that she is now ruined goods, the father can decide, not the girl, if it is in HIS best interest to give her over to the creep and get the full amount
It says he gets the full amount either way.
I did not disagree with that. As stated, the father has the financial incentive to find someone else because he got the price as decided by the courts. "Bride Price" is on a sliding scale as indicated by other verses.
So if she was at the high end, say 200 shekels, then the father would get that. In the other verse, we see the father would get the additional 50 shekels as well as a penalty against the perpetrator.
If she was not a virgin, then there is no transaction, since the value of her goods in a future sale remains unchanged. Not even for rape if they were encountered after the fact, if you stick to the plain meaning of the text. Additional Rabbinical laws were enacted centuries later.
“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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RE: Why would any woman want to be Christian?
March 9, 2013 at 2:51 pm
(March 9, 2013 at 2:42 pm)EGross Wrote: I did not disagree with that. As stated, the father has the financial incentive to find someone else because he got the price as decided by the courts. So, the law doesn't require that she be married to the man, and actually gives incentive that she not be given to him.
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RE: Why would any woman want to be Christian?
March 9, 2013 at 3:05 pm
(This post was last modified: March 9, 2013 at 3:13 pm by EGross.)
Yes, if the girl was a virgin, and she was not already sold (erusin - waiting for delivery) and if the father doesn't like the guy, then the opposing verses indicate that the father, as primary owner, has a choice in the matter, but the seducer/boyfriend or rapist does not. It also appears that the girl, as property, does not have any choice either, although a good father would take his daughter's feelings into account. The financial incentive of a resale might cause him to hold onto her. Non-virgins have less financial value, and so are out of the picture concerning compensation.
“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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RE: Why would any woman want to be Christian?
March 11, 2013 at 1:18 am
(throws up a little)
Pointing around: "Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you're cool, fuck you, I'm out!"
Half Baked
"Let the atheists come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom of heathens belongs to people like these." -Saint Bacon
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RE: Why would any woman want to be Christian?
March 12, 2013 at 12:02 am
I had the same conversation with my girlfriend
"So you believe in the bible?"
"Yes"
"So you believe your inferior to man?"
"No... "
"So you don't believe in the bible?" *shows sexist passages*
"Ahhhhhh I dunnoo ahhhhh leave me alone" *cries*
I really wasn't trying to be mean... Only trying to make her question her belief by pointing out how cruel and unfair it is. I never dare to bring something like that up again though... Trust me.
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RE: Why would any woman want to be Christian?
March 12, 2013 at 12:04 am
(March 11, 2013 at 1:18 am)jrsm_10 Wrote: (throws up a little)
Well now we know where the islamists got their ideas from
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Why would any woman want to be Christian?
March 12, 2013 at 12:06 am
(March 12, 2013 at 12:02 am)iameatingjam Wrote: I had the same conversation with my girlfriend
"So you believe in the bible?"
"Yes"
"So you believe your inferior to man?"
"No... "
"So you don't believe in the bible?" *shows sexist passages*
"Ahhhhhh I dunnoo ahhhhh leave me alone" *cries*
I really wasn't trying to be mean... Only trying to make her question her belief by pointing out how cruel and unfair it is. I never dare to bring something like that up again though... Trust me.
Why try and get her to leave her faith? Do you have a way to know how to live a good life?
Why lead people into nihilism?
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RE: Why would any woman want to be Christian?
March 12, 2013 at 12:30 am
(March 12, 2013 at 12:06 am)jstrodel Wrote: (March 12, 2013 at 12:02 am)iameatingjam Wrote: I had the same conversation with my girlfriend
"So you believe in the bible?"
"Yes"
"So you believe your inferior to man?"
"No... "
"So you don't believe in the bible?" *shows sexist passages*
"Ahhhhhh I dunnoo ahhhhh leave me alone" *cries*
I really wasn't trying to be mean... Only trying to make her question her belief by pointing out how cruel and unfair it is. I never dare to bring something like that up again though... Trust me.
Why try and get her to leave her faith? Do you have a way to know how to live a good life?
Why lead people into nihilism?
Because I dont think believing in bronze age fairy tales written in a book that condones slavery, sexism, racism, genocide and child sacrifice is a good thing no matter how you dress it up and no matter what angle you take to try and justify it or circumvent the issues.
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RE: Why would any woman want to be Christian?
March 12, 2013 at 2:30 am
(This post was last modified: March 12, 2013 at 2:30 am by EGross.)
Aw, c'mon. How many child sacrifices were there - really? Two, maybe. Three tops! As one believer told me about the 9/11, "Well, it could have been worse, thank God."
“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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