Is it strange that I want there to be a God ?

[jstrodel]

I couldn't live without God. God is my best friend. I can assure you that God is real. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will opened to you. God is real, if you have any questions, PM me. I will write 25 pages if you want. It isn't a problem. Send me what you are curious about.

yeah... you keep telling yourself that. Say it enough times and you'll become convinced of it....wait, you've done it already!!

The Christian faith is true, I want all of it to be true, the mercy, the judgement, the person of Christ. I love God. God saved me and gave me hope that there was more in the world than money and getting a job and pleasure and living an empty life. God has given me meaning and opened my eyes to the wisdom of God. It is really amazing how many good things have come to me through God's agency.

hmmm, how many have? and which?

Seek and you will find. It is not wrong to long to be with God. God puts that in people.

Or people put that in people and then think it was some extra-terrestrial divinity.

But you must respond. Don't be weak. Don't let anyone talk you out of it.

I won't let anyone talk me out of it... if your god does exist and has presented itself to other people (not through wanting, but presented in a physical form), as is recorded in your holy book, then I expect the same treatment. Is it too much to expect?
Why must must I delude myself before I accept the existence of the delusion?

As for the wars and problem of evil, the world is in a state of evil because people have resisted God. They are no longer under the blessing of God, so that now sin affects the course of the world. That is why there are wars, because people fight to control the world. God did not cause all the bad things to happen, but now that they happen, God does punish sin. God is not more severe in God's ways than most governments in history, who have punished some crimes severely, but nevertheless are just and fair.

The wars... god itself helps win some wars, according to your holy book. If the guy's involved in wars, why would the evil of wars in the world be solved by this god?
I wouldn't expect it to be so...

There really is no philosophical problem of evil. God simply is not required to act in history the way that people would want God to, and if God did, what would happen is the end of the world, because so many things would change that people would cease to have free will and the kingdom of God would come.

How do you account for the free will of the people in the holy book's stories? Moses?... he met god, hence had no free will, so.... no kingdom of heaven for him. The same goes for Abraham, the apostles... heck, everyone!
Now, why must I believe the stories that were written about these people, instead of having equivalent experiences?
Why is it all done in such a way that, were the stories man-made/imagined, nothing would be required to change in the physical world we have around us?
Why must I delude myself that god exists before I have any experience of this god?
Why are all current "experiences" of the divine so camouflaged and mental that the only rational explanation for them is "man-made/imagined"?
Why, if god presented itself to some humans, can't it present itself to all humans?
Why, if god presented itself to some humans in one way (J.C, for example), did it present itself to other humans in a different way (e.g. Mohamed), giving rise to different religions and all the hardship and war those have brought on the world?

Could you condense your argument down to one point or two points I can respond to. I can't really find any argument here.

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I couldn't live without Allah. Allah is my best friend. I can assure you that Allah is real. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will opened to you. Allah is real, if you have any questions, PM me. I will write 25 pages if you want. It isn't a problem. Send me what you are curious about.

The Muslim faith is true, I want all of it to be true, the mercy, the judgement, the person of Mohammed. I love Allah. Allah saved me and gave me hope that there was more in the world than money and getting a job and pleasure and living an empty life. Allah has given me meaning and opened my eyes to the wisdom of Allah. It is really amazing how many good things have come to me through Allah's agency.

Seek and you will find. It is not wrong to long to be with Allah. Allah puts that in people.

But you must respond. Don't be weak. Don't let anyone talk you out of it.


As for the wars and problem of evil, the world is in a state of evil because people have resisted Allah. They are no longer under the blessing of Allah, so that now sin affects the course of the world. That is why there are wars, because people fight to control the world. Allah did not cause all the bad things to happen, but now that they happen, Allah does punish sin. Allah is not more severe in Allah's ways than most governments in history, who have punished some crimes severely, but nevertheless are just and fair.

There really is no philosophical problem of evil. Allah simply is not required to act in history the way that people would want Allah to, and if Allah did, what would happen is the end of the world, because so many things would change that people would cease to have free will and the kingdom of Allah would come.

Something to think about. Life is complicated.

This and more in the Quoran!

Now, strodel, prove the edited quote incorrect.

Maybe a lot of Muslims have the same experience and they are experience the same Father of Abraham that I experience. I couldn't be sure. Why must I disprove it? Why shouldn't you disprove that the two largest religions which both point to extremely similar deities who trace back to similar historical figures must argue against the existence of some common entity that explains both? That is not self evident to me, I find the existence of the two similar deities to be evidence for the truth claims, though it raises a problem, similar to the diversity of views within Christianity theology, of why God would reveal himself simultaneously in diverse ways. I am not sure exactly what the answer is, I suspect that here are many different forces involved in the reception of both Christianity and Islam, but I see the strong similarities as evidence.

Now a question for you: If all Gods and systems are the same, why can you only point to one God? Why, in 2013, are there no followers of Zeus and few animists, but why do monotheists cover the globe? Why does it seem like the religious traditions seem to coalesce around similar claims about God and Jesus, in many different religious traditions.

The problem is not that there are 500000000 competing claims that are all equally true, it is that there a relatively small number of claims that could conceivably represent what God would do if God revealed God's ways to the whole earth.

If God revealed God's self, would God come in the form of a primitive voodoo cult in Haiti? But is that explained if you understand Christianity, which accepts the reality of demons, though does not give them power.

The existence of many similar religions to Christianity gives additional evidence that there is some common revelation that is incomplete among non-Christians.

[CleanShavenJesus]

Why shouldn't you disprove that the two largest religions which both point to extremely similar deities who trace back to similar historical figures must argue against the existence of some common entity that explains both?

Well, if that were the case then it would mean that neither Christianity NOR Islam is true. If you can't prove one correct, then they're both incorrect. If you're getting at the idea that there is some sort of God that Christianity and Islam both represent, but in different ways, you can't say one is correct and the other isn't. They're similar, not the same. There are still a plethora of differences.

If there is a God that Christianity and Islam are, in a lack of a better term, "on to", then your religion can't be true, and neither can Islam.

[jstrodel]

Why? Argue that point from self evident premises to conclusions. The biggest strength of the atheist movement is that atheists don't argue from truly self evident principles.

[CleanShavenJesus]

Why? Because this means that there is a deity, but not the one that Muslims think exists and not the one that Christianity thinks exists. The God of the Bible and the Allah of the Quoran are two VERY different deities.

If you think that there is some sort of God that Christianity and Islam are both on to...then how could it be the same one? Both religions has a very different definition of their God.

I'm sounding redundant here, mostly because there's nothing more to explain from my previous post.

The biggest strength of the atheist movement is that atheists don't argue from truly self evident principles.

Did you get A's in your "Irony" class as well as your philosophy one?

[pocaracas]

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yeah... you keep telling yourself that. Say it enough times and you'll become convinced of it....wait, you've done it already!!

hmmm, how many have? and which?
Or people put that in people and then think it was some extra-terrestrial divinity.
I won't let anyone talk me out of it... if your god does exist and has presented itself to other people (not through wanting, but presented in a physical form), as is recorded in your holy book, then I expect the same treatment. Is it too much to expect?
Why must must I delude myself before I accept the existence of the delusion?
The wars... god itself helps win some wars, according to your holy book. If the guy's involved in wars, why would the evil of wars in the world be solved by this god?
I wouldn't expect it to be so...
How do you account for the free will of the people in the holy book's stories? Moses?... he met god, hence had no free will, so.... no kingdom of heaven for him. The same goes for Abraham, the apostles... heck, everyone!
Now, why must I believe the stories that were written about these people, instead of having equivalent experiences?
Why is it all done in such a way that, were the stories man-made/imagined, nothing would be required to change in the physical world we have around us?
Why must I delude myself that god exists before I have any experience of this god?
Why are all current "experiences" of the divine so camouflaged and mental that the only rational explanation for them is "man-made/imagined"?
Why, if god presented itself to some humans, can't it present itself to all humans?
Why, if god presented itself to some humans in one way (J.C, for example), did it present itself to other humans in a different way (e.g. Mohamed), giving rise to different religions and all the hardship and war those have brought on the world?

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Could you condense your argument down to one point or two points I can respond to. I can't really find any argument here.

That's because you can't argue... clearly...
You can only repeat what I've seen written time and time again... like a parrot who says what it's been taught, but can't go beyond that.

Start with all the "why" questions I posed. I'll let you pick one, if you can't tackle them all in sequence.

[The Grand Nudger]

"You have no evidence" is about as self evident as it gets Strodel.

[Creed of Heresy]

*chuckles*

"Do you have something I can argue with?"

I hear this a lot out of you Strodel. We're not really throwing any big words or mind-blowing arguments your way; this is just simple, common-sense shit. If you REALLY can't grasp the idea of the differences between Allah and Yahweh, just admit it and stop pretending like everyone on this board is just going out of their way to post things you can't respond to. I can find something to respond to in every single last fucking post everyone makes. Hell sometimes all I do is just post something short but relevant just to show I'm still lurking in the thread, often as a reply to something someone already said. It's not very hard to do.

There's a difference between losing a debate, and pretending like the debate isn't happening because the points brought up in the debate are crushing your Personally Justified Feels.

[jstrodel]

Why? Because this means that there is a deity, but not the one that Muslims think exists and not the one that Christianity thinks exists. The God of the Bible and the Allah of the Quoran are two VERY different deities.

If you think that there is some sort of God that Christianity and Islam are both on to...then how could it be the same one? Both religions has a very different definition of their God.

I'm sounding redundant here, mostly because there's nothing more to explain from my previous post.

The biggest strength of the atheist movement is that atheists don't argue from truly self evident principles.

Did you get A's in your "Irony" class as well as your philosophy one?

What if one is a corruption of the other and the significant differences are from significant corruption, but they have a common root and a common tie through spiritual laws that govern each (e.g. God exalts nations that follow God to one degree or another and gives them power over the ones that do not follow God). An interesting question: why are Christian and Muslim nations the most powerful and other nations and religions not powerful? Why has Christianity and Islam been able to survive for hundreds of years and have control over so many and Communism and animism has failed and has basically not had any longevity?

[Mystic]

O wow, might makes right argument now.

[jstrodel]

Why is it all done in such a way that, were the stories man-made/imagined, nothing would be required to change in the physical world we have around us?
Why must I delude myself that god exists before I have any experience of this god?
Why are all current "experiences" of the divine so camouflaged and mental that the only rational explanation for them is "man-made/imagined"?
Why, if god presented itself to some humans, can't it present itself to all humans?
Why, if god presented itself to some humans in one way (J.C, for example), did it present itself to other humans in a different way (e.g. Mohamed), giving rise to different religions and all the hardship and war those have brought on the world?

The reason why I responded the way that I did was because you are asking a whole lot of questions that each have good answers to them, but you aren't arguing your points, you are just stacking up question after question. Do you know how to argue?

Why should any of these be seen as obstacles to Christian belief? Can you put any of these in language that shows why they are actually contradictory with Christianity, as opposed to things that you don't like? I could come up with my own list of questions, for instance:

Why did God make winter long?
Why does winter suck so bad?
If God is a nice person, why doesn't God give me a nicer house?

Etc. Where does the contradiction lie in your questions? What is it that you are trying to show that is actually contradictory or demonstrates Christianity is untrue, versus it doesn't seem plausible from your perspective.

I already answered one of them about Christianity and Islam. If you just put 100 vaguely defined contradictions between what you want and Christianity, as soon as I type 200-300 pages and somesay "LOL LOOK AT THAT MORON", the thread will end. Where is the contradiction? Can you put it in formal logic?