What Sacrifice ?

[Neo-Scholastic]

And yet through it all, He continued to love all of mankind, including His tormentors. Amazing!

[Minimalist]

Isn't it amazing what fictional characters can do, Chad?

Why, Peter Pan could fly and never got old. What a great trick.

[Tex]

There are people who have suffered much worse than that.

None of us have had the wrath of God upon them. If this was all just physical, I'm sure people have had things worse, but this is not just about pain sensors or psychological damage.

Really? When is the last time any one was "resurrected?" Because I gotta tell you, dead means fucking dead.

Jesus has been the only one so far. The next time it happens is the end of the world (and its everyone, believers and non-believers, at one time).

And where is the sacrifice?
He puts up with a bit of abuse for three days and then goes to heaven, which he knew was going to happen anyway.
Mere mortals on the hand have endured years of torture for their beliefs(frequently at the hands of the church).
Now if jesus had offered to take the place of even one sinner in hell THAT would have been a true sacrifice.
This is nothing.

He gets abused for his entire life. He knew that it would end, but that doesn't stop the actual problem at hand. People went and rebuilt houses in New Orleans after Katrina. They could have played Call of Duty instead. While this isn't suffering, they did sacrifice their time. The sacrifice isn't meaningless because it's temporal.

Finally, I think you're confusing two things with your comment "if jesus had offered to take the place of even one sinner...". First, if Jesus had not come, the conclusion of all people was death, not hell. This is first stated in Genesis 3 and really echoed in Ecclesiastes 9. Jesus' undue suffering allows us to be resurrected eternally, thus undoing the death sentence. Everyone is resurrected, believers and non-believers. From here, the new covenant (biblical concept, would take a while to explain, just trust me, means "contract" or "agreement") between God and an individual is what allows for "eternal life" and prevents "eternal death" (not bodily). At the very root of the covenant, the basic necessity is trust in God. There are things this leads to, but the foundation of this is at least some degree of trust. If the relationship is rejected, now hell comes into play. This isn't a place where God tortures you because you won't vote for him in the universal popularity contest. This is the place you go on your own free will because you don't want to be near God. This sucks for you because here there is sin, and the believers will never see sin again. God allows this. I imagine hell to be a little like the earth we have now with no death. If we do not take evil out of the equation, the lack of "death" is a curse, not a blessing.

[Baalzebutt]

Finally, I think you're confusing two things with your comment "if jesus had offered to take the place of even one sinner...". First, if Jesus had not come, the conclusion of all people was death, not hell. This is first stated in Genesis 3 and really echoed in Ecclesiastes 9. Jesus' undue suffering allows us to be resurrected eternally, thus undoing the death sentence. Everyone is resurrected, believers and non-believers. From here, the new covenant (biblical concept, would take a while to explain, just trust me, means "contract" or "agreement") between God and an individual is what allows for "eternal life" and prevents "eternal death" (not bodily). At the very root of the covenant, the basic necessity is trust in God. There are things this leads to, but the foundation of this is at least some degree of trust. If the relationship is rejected, now hell comes into play. This isn't a place where God tortures you because you won't vote for him in the universal popularity contest. This is the place you go on your own free will because you don't want to be near God. This sucks for you because here there is sin, and the believers will never see sin again. God allows this. I imagine hell to be a little like the earth we have now with no death. If we do not take evil out of the equation, the lack of "death" is a curse, not a blessing.

What if I want to die?

[Faith No More]

This is the place you go on your own free will because you don't want to be near God.

How can I not want to be around something I don't believe exists?

[thesummerqueen]

The sacrifice is the suffering endured. He died at the hands of the very people that he was trying to save. In this, he had to unnecessarily humble himself and live with people he calls his own while watching them cheat each other, beat each other, and promote their own superiority, and all sort of depravity. Specifically on the crucifixion, he was denied by his best friend, beaten, heckled, spit on, forced to work till he collapsed, nailed to a cross, had the wrath of the Father upon him, then died of suffocation and fatigue. Then, he stayed dead for a while. That was the sacrifice. He suffered, yet he is God. He did this without sinning while in the Mosaic Covenant.

Resurrection is the gift to us. That whole passion bit wasn't just for fun. Jesus is resurrected, and therefore gets to bring those of faith (does not mean knowledge of western metaphysical thought on an Unmoved mover) to the Father for purification and everlasting life.

I've never had an adequate explanation for why the suffering of another, why another person purposely humbling himself - choosing to allow himself to be debased and treated like utter shit, is something you need to praise and worship and find inspiration in.

Drivel

What a profound, intellectual comment. I'm sure generations for years to come will marvel over the comment here. My explanation of the suffering of Christ, which was on topic with the thread, but your refutation as shown above totally shows me and the world how terribly wrong I am. Instead, I should join you in Lala Land where everyone just allows your superior mind to think for them.

A mark of intellectual maturity is the ability to tell the truth in the pithiest statement.

[pocaracas]

---

There are people who have suffered much worse than that.

None of us have had the wrath of God upon them. If this was all just physical, I'm sure people have had things worse, but this is not just about pain sensors or psychological damage.

Really? When is the last time any one was "resurrected?" Because I gotta tell you, dead means fucking dead.

Jesus has been the only one so far. The next time it happens is the end of the world (and its everyone, believers and non-believers, at one time).

And where is the sacrifice?
He puts up with a bit of abuse for three days and then goes to heaven, which he knew was going to happen anyway.
Mere mortals on the hand have endured years of torture for their beliefs(frequently at the hands of the church).
Now if jesus had offered to take the place of even one sinner in hell THAT would have been a true sacrifice.
This is nothing.

He gets abused for his entire life. He knew that it would end, but that doesn't stop the actual problem at hand. People went and rebuilt houses in New Orleans after Katrina. They could have played Call of Duty instead. While this isn't suffering, they did sacrifice their time. The sacrifice isn't meaningless because it's temporal.

Finally, I think you're confusing two things with your comment "if jesus had offered to take the place of even one sinner...". First, if Jesus had not come, the conclusion of all people was death, not hell. This is first stated in Genesis 3 and really echoed in Ecclesiastes 9. Jesus' undue suffering allows us to be resurrected eternally, thus undoing the death sentence. Everyone is resurrected, believers and non-believers. From here, the new covenant (biblical concept, would take a while to explain, just trust me, means "contract" or "agreement") between God and an individual is what allows for "eternal life" and prevents "eternal death" (not bodily).

---

At the very root of the covenant, the basic necessity is trust in God. There are things this leads to, but the foundation of this is at least some degree of trust.

---

If the relationship is rejected, now hell comes into play. This isn't a place where God tortures you because you won't vote for him in the universal popularity contest. This is the place you go on your own free will because you don't want to be near God. This sucks for you because here there is sin, and the believers will never see sin again. God allows this. I imagine hell to be a little like the earth we have now with no death. If we do not take evil out of the equation, the lack of "death" is a curse, not a blessing.

---

If it's that important, why must I believe what you say?
Why can't the guy show itself to all?
Why is it that people in remote parts of the world only came to know about this Jesus/Yahweh thing from previous believers? Why didn't the thing present itself all over the world?
Why the requirement for human vessels for this knowledge?
Why the requirement of belief?

PS: don't say "free will". Give a proper answer.

[Darkstar]

There are people who have suffered much worse than that.

None of us have had the wrath of God upon them. If this was all just physical, I'm sure people have had things worse, but this is not just about pain sensors or psychological damage.

So he had the wrath of...himself? Does it actually say he deliberately tortures himself or is this pure speculation?

[Ryantology]

And yet through it all, He continued to love all of mankind, including His tormentors. Amazing!

And that's why you'll go to hell if you don't love him back!

[Minimalist]

Jesus has been the only one so far. The next time it happens is the end of the world (and its everyone, believers and non-believers, at one time).

Don't expect me to hold my breath.

I hope you and "jesus" are very happy together.