Skeptics view of Genesis

[Drich]

@Drich, how tall would someone need to be to qualify as a giant? See? It's a gradation. Which makes your whole "race" point moot.

According to the passage that describes golith 8 to 10 ft.

Most of the very tall people have an imbalance of their growth hormones, they do not need to come from tall parents. That's not a "race".

Indeed it is not, but that is not what I said. I said is it not hard to imagine a race meaning (no hormone imbalance) people who were tall as a result of their genes.

But I guess anything goes when it comes to proving the bible right.

Again double edged sword.

"I guess anything Goes when you try and prove the bible wrong."

[freedomfromforum]

@Drich

[Minimalist]

According to the passage that describes golith 8 to 10 ft.

You do know - probably not since its you - that the David-Goliath story is one of the classic anachronisms used by Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein iin his book David and Solomon to demonstrate that these silly stories date to the 7th century BC?

[pineapplebunnybounce]

@Drich, how tall would someone need to be to qualify as a giant? See? It's a gradation. Which makes your whole "race" point moot.

According to the passage that describes golith 8 to 10 ft.

so what happens if they have a child that only grows to be 7 feet 11 inches tall? What race is it then? I'm assuming 8 is your cutoff point here?

Most of the very tall people have an imbalance of their growth hormones, they do not need to come from tall parents. That's not a "race".

Indeed it is not, but that is not what I said. I said is it not hard to imagine a race meaning (no hormone imbalance) people who were tall as a result of their genes.

No, it's also not hard to imagine dragons. Your point? You were the one who linked pictures of tall people to support your point, I was just pointing out that they're not part of a "tall race", but instead very likely have an excess of growth hormones. Before you go any further, height isn't 1 gene. It's multiple genes that are also affected by environmental factors. So tall people don't necessarily have tall children. And all tall people's heights were influenced by their environment.

But I guess anything goes when it comes to proving the bible right.

Again double edged sword.

"I guess anything Goes when you try and prove the bible wrong."

What have I said that is fantasy? Point it out.

[Drich]

-or-
It was as I described:
http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/Genesis_texts.html

Are you saying that you agree with the explanation from that site?

In so far as what is topically being discussed here on this thread concerning genesis 1&2 yes. I originally had a link to an 'ask-a-rabbi' site that said the same thing, but I can not find it.

---

According to the passage that describes golith 8 to 10 ft.

You do know - probably not since its you - that the David-Goliath story is one of the classic anachronisms used by Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein iin his book David and Solomon to demonstrate that these silly stories date to the 7th century BC?

---

so what happens if they have a child that only grows to be 7 feet 11 inches tall? What race is it then? I'm assuming 8 is your cutoff point here?

My 'cut off' was the height of golith. He was reported to be between 8 and 10ft tall. You asked what height makes a giant. I said Golith was a giant, and he was between 8 and 10 feet tall.

No, it's also not hard to imagine dragons. Your point?

and they lived... That's what dinosaurs are.

You were the one who linked pictures of tall people to support your point, I was just pointing out that they're not part of a "tall race", but instead very likely have an excess of growth hormones.

because that is what you see now. (after I pointed it out to you, because if you remember you were of the thought that all giants are mythical.)

What have I said that is fantasy? Point it out.

Begging the question you have presupposed I am alluding to only fantasy. I said anything goes when your trying to prove the bible wrong. "Anything" is not limited to just fantasy.

A good example of 'anything goes' is dismissing a 8 to 10 foot man as a gaint. Calling him a fairy tale, even though we have living examples of Humans growing that large.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Quote me saying that tall people don't exist, otherwise quit putting words in my mouth. I said they're part of the human species. I clearly don't have a definition of a giant, which is why I asked for yours. Seriously, at least pretend to be honest.

Is Goliath 8 or 10 feet? And was he a giant or a nephilim?

Your point wasn't that tall people exist, your point was that they can exist as a race. And I even explained how biological inheritance of height works, which you promptly ignored, because you don't want to admit that tall people aren't a race. And there is no evidence to suggest that there could even possibly be a race of such people.

Why didn't you answer the question about 8 ft tall people having 7 feet 11 inches kid?

[Drich]

Is Goliath 8 or 10 feet?

It depends of the text you want to take the translation from. Some older texts say 8ft, but most bible use the text that says 10ft.

And was he a giant or a nephilim?

The word in either text is: נפיל nĕphiyl, Nephilim is the English version of the Hebrew word for giant. to say either is correct.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm...KJV#conc/4

Your point wasn't that tall people exist, your point was that they can exist as a race.

Indeed.

And I even explained how biological inheritance of height works, which you promptly ignored, because you don't want to admit that tall people aren't a race.

You explained how you understand genetics of tall people to work based on the current model of humanity. I'm sorry if I do not take your singular perspective view of Human genetics as gospel truth as you have. My mind remains open to the possiablity of other 'races' of humanity. Not to just what we understand to be humanity today.

And there is no evidence to suggest that there could even possibly be a race of such people.

... and what would 5000 year old evidence of unburried giants look like today?

Why didn't you answer the question about 8 ft tall people having 7 feet 11 inches kid?

Because I did not say a 7'11" tall kid could not be considered a נפיל nĕphiyl. I said Goliath was considered a נפיל nĕphiyl, and he was reported to be between 8 to 10 feet tall. You wanted a size for a giant, Golith was considered to be a נפיל nĕphiyl, and that was the range we have on his height. Not that נפיל nĕphiyl can not be taller or shorter. My statement simply put golith @ 8 to 10 feet tall.

[Tonus]

PICTURE OF ACTUAL NEPHILIM (ie, GIANT):

[pineapplebunnybounce]

@Drich, I believe you just proved all of my points.

[Drich]

 Even more Abraham lied because people did fear ‘God’ so if God was all powerful why did he appear to only affect the life of Abraham and Lott everything else does not seem to justify their God.

It seems to me that two great Kings lives were also affected by God.

 God closed up people’s womb God is a tyrant.

Would you say that if He closed up Hitler's Mother's womb?

How are you in a position to understand what closing up a womb may do over the course of time?

Genesis 21

 Lovely Sarah who is involved with Deception and Abraham sent Hagar who was gracious enough to give Abraham a son is sent away.

Indeed.

 God lived with Ishmael – while he grew up?

No. God blessed Ishmael. His decendants are supposedly the nation of Islam.

 Abimelech is Afraid of Abraham and Abraham bullies him about the Well of water?

No. Ab, wanted Abrahams blessings, and Abra, said he would treat Abl as he had been treated by abl. Abra, said you took one of my wells, and as a measure of good will to show abl was not complicit with what had happened to Abra.



They swore an oath because someone dug a well? How pointless!

to the boy/man who poops in cleaner water than these men had to drink.
water was life to these men, more precious than gold or silver.

 Abraham is now calling upon the ‘Eternal Lord’ must be a different Guy!

why?



Why did God say Abrahams only son?

Because Abra was not married to Hagar.

Abraham had two sons?

No, he only had one son and a bastard.

Did he not know this?

Indeed He did that is why only one son is actually identified.

 What! God wanted to test Abraham for what purpose? God KNEW THE OUTCOME!

God's tests, are never for God t know the outcome. God's tests are to show us the outcome.



Abraham did not even question this – Abraham was deluded though reading previously

Abraham was always in it for himself?

 Why did Abraham not question God here when he tried to reason with him regarding Sodom and Gomorrah? Abraham has clearly some mental difficulties!  Abraham even got Isaac to carry the wood!

You yourself even pointed out all the different times abra failed or fell short in faith to God. Abra was fianally to the point where he had complete faith in him.

 Abraham lied to his son!

So? If he didn't he probably would not have gone.



God mentions Isaac as his Only Son?

indeed because the other one was a bastard.



Abraham did not kill his son Isaac because ‘An Angel of God’ as opposed to God himself who told Abraham to kill his son? Even so much as when the message is given to Abraham to stop it appears that God is the 3rd Person!

That is what the word angel means. One who carries the message of God.(Messenger) So whether God said to "X" Himself or whether God sends a messenger to tell you to do "X" it is still God telling you to do "X"

 God again blesses everyone on earth. I thought he did this with Noah?

Maybe you do not understand what the word means. Please define the word or phrase as you see understand it.

Genesis 24

 This is interesting we are told that Abraham is old. I thought 100 was old?!

indeed.

 Place a servants hand under Abrahams Thigh?

it's just as strange to someone who is not familiar with shaking hands to swear an oath. or bumping fists..



God will find a woman for Isaac however the woman may be unwilling to come back? I guess God put a lot of thought into this woman?

God was not mentioned in the oath between Abraham and his lead servant.

 The Servant tested God and asked him to show him by a physical sign not all this ‘In my heart crap!’

No read the passage again the servant asked God for a sign.



By God controlling the mouth of the Girl that is him interfering with free will again much like the way he kept people from sin!

How do you know God forced her to say anything? Maybe the camels looked thirsty.



((NAHOR is Rebecca’s father))

 The servant of Abraham said that God blessed him greatly and made him wealthy – Oh yeah because Abraham used deception with the Pharaoh to get wealthy!

So?

 What ever happened to Ishmael why did Isaac get everything – what ever happened to first born birth rights!

Ishmael was a bastard, and as such had no rights in that society.

 Why did God need to send an Angel before the man’s servant! Why did the woman just not materialise or come to him! Clearly God made the woman speak specific words so interfering with free will could not be a problem.

God is the God of the natural world. why do you people always assume god must do magic in order to be God? Why would he put the natural order of the cosmos in motion only to circumvent everytime he wanted something done? Wouldn't a true all knowing God be able to put natural occouring events in order to simply provide Him what he wants?



The servant acknowledges there is a Distinction from his GOD and the God of Abraham.

where?

 The Servant told god to get the woman to say ‘Drink! And I’ll water your camels too’ When the woman actually said (Drink, my lord) Then said (Ill draw water for your camels too, until they have finished drinking)

... So?

---

@Drich, I believe you just proved all of my points.

Then we are in complete agreement as I have proved all of mine as well.

Wow this is a first on this website.