Federal Government Shutdown

[Psykhronic]

and I am very grateful not to live in a complete fucking atrocious wasteland,

Give the republicunts some time.

Oh gee, Min, just brighten my day with realism why don't you.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Well, I'm not connecting imaginary dots, you yourself have made those connections in your post. For those who want to leave...Well, why really leave? Where to? Where do you expect to get a better life? And why do you think that they would welcome a penniless American anywhere on earth?
Personally I think you should be grateful. People go through numerous hardships just to come to your country. Instead I see here a lot of people complaining about things. And by complaining, they do not even claim to love or care about the country and its people so as to really complain.

I did not say they would welcome penniless americans - in fact, i already said without money its pretty much impossible to emigrate. Some people wish to go to Canada, Nordic Countries, or Europe. And just because people think life is gonna be GRAND in america means nothing to me. And I doubt other countries are flawless. But I am never living in another country.

And really? Be grateful? Son, I am HAPPY ALL THE TIME to not live in your country, and I am very grateful not to live in a complete fucking atrocious wasteland, but that does not mean America is free from criticism.

So what's the problem then? People who have something to show for, and think that they're wasted in America already find their ways to other countries. For those who have nothing to offer, already have a higher life standard than those from developing and underdeveloped countries who have nothing to offer and want to emigrate to Europe, which I believe to be the prime destination of Americans who do not like in America, and thats because Europe is somewhat culturally more closer to America.

And if you're so grateful, why does it seem a bit too hard for you to respect your national symbols?
I'm not only grateful, but proud to live in this atrocious wasteland, because its my wasteland, won by blood. And even if it was as you said it is(an atrocious wasteland), I'd do my best to turn it into a heaven.

[Minimalist]

Look what they have achieved in Cleveland...



and Detroit

[Psykhronic]

I did not say they would welcome penniless americans - in fact, i already said without money its pretty much impossible to emigrate. Some people wish to go to Canada, Nordic Countries, or Europe. And just because people think life is gonna be GRAND in america means nothing to me. And I doubt other countries are flawless. But I am never living in another country.

And really? Be grateful? Son, I am HAPPY ALL THE TIME to not live in your country, and I am very grateful not to live in a complete fucking atrocious wasteland, but that does not mean America is free from criticism.

So what's the problem then? People who have something to show for, and think that they're wasted in America already find their ways to other countries. For those who have nothing to offer, already have a higher life standard than those from developing and underdeveloped countries who have nothing to offer and want to emigrate to Europe, which I believe to be the prime destination of Americans who do not like in America, and thats because Europe is somewhat culturally more closer to America.

And if you're so grateful, why does it seem a bit too hard for you to respect your national symbols?
I'm not only grateful, but proud to live in this atrocious wasteland, because its my wasteland, won by blood. And even if it was as you said it is(an atrocious wasteland), I'd do my best to turn it into a heaven.

Actually, Mehmet, I was not calling your place an atrocious wasteland, I was speaking in general, sorry I should have specified. Where I say I am happy not to live in your country - that is the only time I meant Turkey.

Just because we, in the majority of places (inner cities are more... complicated) have more than developing countries, again, does not mean America is free from criticism - I expect much more from my country. But it is, as I said, hard for many to leave - so telling them to leave, like A Theist was doing, is very short-sighted and impractical.

I cannot respect a lot about my country's politics, therefore I do not extend my respect.

[kılıç_mehmet]

So what's the problem then? People who have something to show for, and think that they're wasted in America already find their ways to other countries. For those who have nothing to offer, already have a higher life standard than those from developing and underdeveloped countries who have nothing to offer and want to emigrate to Europe, which I believe to be the prime destination of Americans who do not like in America, and thats because Europe is somewhat culturally more closer to America.

And if you're so grateful, why does it seem a bit too hard for you to respect your national symbols?
I'm not only grateful, but proud to live in this atrocious wasteland, because its my wasteland, won by blood. And even if it was as you said it is(an atrocious wasteland), I'd do my best to turn it into a heaven.

Actually, Mehmet, I was not calling your place an atrocious wasteland, I was speaking in general, sorry I should have specified. Where I say I am happy not to live in your country - that is the only time I meant Turkey.

Just because we, in the vast majority of places (inner cities are more... complicated) have more than developing countries, again, does not mean America is free from criticism - I expect much more from my country. But it is, as I said, hard for many to leave - so telling them to leave, like A Theist was doing, is very short-sighted and impractical.

I cannot respect a lot about my country's politics, therefore I do not extend my respect.

You can call it whatever you want, it wouldn't matter. As I said, even if it was a wasteland, my ideals are there to ensure my commitment in turning it into a place of prosperity. What I'm trying to say that its current or future state will not impact my loyalty to the concept of a Turkish homeland, may the name be Turkey, Turkmenia, or Turkestan, and because of that, I will be loyal to it, and all symbols representing it.

What I think is this. In order expect something, you also must give something. However I see no real zeal here. I have already good living standards, perhaps beyond some of the Americans that browse this forum. Yet my expectations from my country are not in the form of what you expect from your country. I don't expect for everyone to be rich, or everyone to live as good as in, say nordic countries. Reality is, they have smaller populations than we do, and they do not live in a geopolitically important area where they are surrounded by hostiles on four sides.
They don't have to deal with constant internal terrorism nor ethnic strife.
So I think that we're actually doing pretty good, given that we don't live on an isolated continent with natural resources either.
All I expect from my country, and my nation is devotion. I don't expect factories to be built overnight, I don't expect everyone to own a PS3, I only want people to shed their egoism and selfishness, and work towards a common goal, after which, prosperity will come on its own.
But if we have people such as many people here, individualists, egoists, materialists...We'll go no further than being a frontier for the NATO.

As I've explained my expectations, which are perhaps even higher than yours, and I'm speaking for the whole lot of the nationalist community here, let me talk about respect and loyalty.
Countries and states, are in and of themselves, idealistic concepts. There is a concept of a country in my mind, which is the place where my heart lies. Do you have such a concept of an "America, my homeland" that is in your heart and mind?

[Psykhronic]

I dont think everyone should own a PS3, but the problem is America has resources that it withholds from the poor intentionally to keep them poor, among other problems. I do not think it's much to ask of my country to work out its problems.

And yes, actually, this is my goddamn homeland. America. My home, the only home I will ever have. And I will critique it as I please, view it as I want, but never be able to erase the fact that this is my roots. You could say it is in my heart and mind.

[kılıç_mehmet]

I dont think everyone should own a PS3, but the problem is America has resources that it withholds from the poor intentionally to keep them poor, among other problems. I do not think it's much to ask of my country to work out its problems.

And yes, actually, this is my goddamn homeland. America. My home, the only home I will ever have. And I will critique it as I please, view it as I want, but never be able to erase the fact that this is my roots. You could say it is in my heart and mind.

Well, isn't America the shining beacon of capitalism? Would you expect socialist policies such as welfare from a capitalist government?
Indeed, the flaws of capitalism and internationalism show themselves wherever they are. Communism failed, and so shall capitalism. It's only a matter of time until we will see riots that result from the excessive costs that will plague the health sector.
So its not about you, its about everyone. Your expectations are in the wrong place, you should expect people to shed their individualism and adopt a collectivist stance. Your country must adopt this stance. However seeing that you're also divided and as someone put forth, "diverse" I don't see this happening any time soon, except without an authoritarian government. But a democratic state will not be able to pull through the necessary policies to secure the future of the country. These problems you experience today, they all stem from democracy.

[sarcasticgeographer]

It is absolutely disgusting that you spit on a flag that has been the symbol of freedom. Why do you think so many people want to come live here? The way you treat our flag is an abomination and you SHOULD move to whatever country you prefer and get over yourself. People have fought and died for the flag that you spit on. Remember Iwo Jima?

Talk to the millions of people in the American prison system for minor drug offences about freedom. Talk to the millions of hard working Americans who work 2 or 3 jobs to support their families to not even be able to pay the bills or provide their family with healthcare about equality. If anything, America doesn't deserve our flag or the right to claim the ideals it represents. It's a farce and a lie. We profess to uphold these ideals, yet when push comes to shove we shit all over our own citizens. Fuck that, and fuck those who claim America holds those values. If we actually held those values we wouldn't be in such sorry ass shape as a nation. Instead we'd put our money where our mouth is and actually fucking live those ideals.

The very reason that you shit on this country is the reason why it is free. You are absolutely free to say what you want, but don't bite the hand that feeds you. It appears that you are part of the entitlement crowd and you think that everything is owed to you. I don't understand people that think they deserve everything and then complain when one thing doesn't go their way.

All that I ask is that you respect the people that have died for the flag of our great nation. For me, when you spit on our flag, you spit on our veterans.

I will admit that our great nation is not perfect, yet I look at all the people who try to come here. That tells me something, and it makes me realize that there is something special about the states. Perhaps not everything is ideal, but I feel grateful and fortunate to live in such a great place. A nation where I can depend on food being available, a nation where I feel safe (relatively), a nation where people can thrive. I am not trying to step on other countries by espousing the greatness of this country. But, I admire the turkish dude for stating some truth about patriotism and a sense of pride. Something that seems to be lacking in many natural born citizens of this country.

If things were so utterly horrible living here, I don't think there would be people literally dying to get here.

I thank all of the sacrifices made on behalf of our patriots in the military for the great nation that we have today and envy their courage, pride, and diligence. May the memory of their virtues and courage live on.

---

I did not say they would welcome penniless americans - in fact, i already said without money its pretty much impossible to emigrate. Some people wish to go to Canada, Nordic Countries, or Europe. And just because people think life is gonna be GRAND in america means nothing to me. And I doubt other countries are flawless. But I am never living in another country.

And really? Be grateful? Son, I am HAPPY ALL THE TIME to not live in your country, and I am very grateful not to live in a complete fucking atrocious wasteland, but that does not mean America is free from criticism.

So what's the problem then? People who have something to show for, and think that they're wasted in America already find their ways to other countries. For those who have nothing to offer, already have a higher life standard than those from developing and underdeveloped countries who have nothing to offer and want to emigrate to Europe, which I believe to be the prime destination of Americans who do not like in America, and thats because Europe is somewhat culturally more closer to America.

And if you're so grateful, why does it seem a bit too hard for you to respect your national symbols?
I'm not only grateful, but proud to live in this atrocious wasteland, because its my wasteland, won by blood. And even if it was as you said it is(an atrocious wasteland), I'd do my best to turn it into a heaven.

Nicely said!!

[Psykhronic]

I dont think everyone should own a PS3, but the problem is America has resources that it withholds from the poor intentionally to keep them poor, among other problems. I do not think it's much to ask of my country to work out its problems.

And yes, actually, this is my goddamn homeland. America. My home, the only home I will ever have. And I will critique it as I please, view it as I want, but never be able to erase the fact that this is my roots. You could say it is in my heart and mind.

Well, isn't America the shining beacon of capitalism? Would you expect socialist policies such as welfare from a capitalist government?
Indeed, the flaws of capitalism and internationalism show themselves wherever they are. Communism failed, and so shall capitalism. It's only a matter of time until we will see riots that result from the excessive costs that will plague the health sector.
So its not about you, its about everyone. Your expectations are in the wrong place, you should expect people to shed their individualism and adopt a collectivist stance. Your country must adopt this stance. However seeing that you're also divided and as someone put forth, "diverse" I don't see this happening any time soon, except without an authoritarian government. But a democratic state will not be able to pull through the necessary policies to secure the future of the country. These problems you experience today, they all stem from democracy.

The solution to the problem is more complicated than setting up an authoritarian government. As a matter of fact, with this nation's history, that would be a piss poor idea.

---

Oh and sarcastic geographer - people have a skewed perspective outside of America about what America actually is. Read "Savage Inequalities" by Kozol, it's about education but touches on the fact that immigrants come here, and there are quite a few of them who arrive in an inner city and go "what the fuck is this shit?"

[Whateverist]

It is absolutely disgusting that you spit on a flag that has been the symbol of freedom. Why do you think so many people want to come live here? The way you treat our flag is an abomination and you SHOULD move to whatever country you prefer and get over yourself. People have fought and died for the flag that you spit on. Remember Iwo Jima?

I appreciate the motives of some former and current service members who have sacrificed and undertaken risk for the sake of what they perceived to be a greater good. There can be nobility in their motivation. But not all who serve do so for such reasons. Too many have too little other choices because of the lack of social mobility and the rampancy of poverty in this 'great' country.

I think I understand quite well what the US has going for it and where it falls short. Without ever having served in the military myself, I feel fully entitled to critique our system. I don't require permission from any flag worshiper to do so.

Nationalism is simply provincialism on a larger scale. Patriotism is tribalism on a larger scale. We no longer live in tribes. It is pretty meaningless to apply 'us' to 300 million people. The threat today comes from within in the form of corruption and factionalism. The aggression that played itself out between nations in the last century is now found in the attitudes of the haves-and-want-more against the have-nots. I for one would never fight in any trumped up 'war' to safeguard the status quo of such a system, but count me in when it comes time to settle our class differences. I'm happy to man a guillotine.