A discussion around family table.

[fr0d0]

I can only attack the common root of it, the rulebook that clearly says you will be tortured forever for not thinking thoughts about how wonderful your god is.

Please show me that part

Control your thoughts or be tortured forever.

Please show me this part

Believe in him all you want, but would your all loving god really torture people forever just because they were not able to think praises about him without faking it?

Would you really get wet if you didn't use an umbrella? Yes.
Is doing bad stuff detrimental to yourself? Yes
Is God counter natural? No

[Rwandrall]

I can only attack the common root of it, the rulebook that clearly says you will be tortured forever for not thinking thoughts about how wonderful your god is.

Please show me that part

Control your thoughts or be tortured forever.

Please show me this part

Believe in him all you want, but would your all loving god really torture people forever just because they were not able to think praises about him without faking it?

Would you really get wet if you didn't use an umbrella? Yes.
Is doing bad stuff detrimental to yourself? Yes
Is God counter natural? No

One of the 10 Commandments is : "You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." There is nothing in there about ACTION. It is purely about controlling your thoughts.

[Watson]

Then there is no point in arguing with you, SN, because you are refusing to take a look at our Christian interpretation of the Christian Bible.

You have literally just stated that you willfully choose not to look into a metaphorical interpretation of any kind of the Bible. This is not logical. Do you not look for metaphors in any other book when you read them? Do you take it lierally when, say, the villain of a book advocates some terrible crime as meaning that the author of that book also advocates the crime? Certainly that's a terrible way to read a book.

Why would I waste time trying to counter all the many re-interpretations? I only care about that on an individual basis, and even then only sometimes. For wider than just one person purposes, I'm going right to the source, the bible, which very clearly does not say 'this one is a metaphor, and that one is real'.

It does say that the Bible is a metaphor...in a metaphorical way. You must read into it to actually see and understand the metaphor. I have told you, the Bible is written in such a way as to allude to a metaphor. That's how you recognize metaphors, you know. Again, when you read a book, do you discern every single character's views to be that of the author? If so, you must have a very negative view of some authors...

Say a book is about a species of lizards that take over the planet, but the underlying theme is a metaphor for communism. Do you simply read the book as being about a species of lizards that take over the planet, or do you read deeper, the way you are supposed to with books, and find the underlying communism metaphor?

I have told you to re-observe the way the Bible is written- it lacks the details of an ordinary, literal-meaning book.

Well, it is rather bad as far as artistic literary aesthetics, but that's not my point. Followers will not be saying 'this one must be a metaphor, since after all, look how non-ordinary the writing is...' You may be different, but Christians in general are expected to believe the stuff written in their bible.

And I do believe in the stuff written in the Bible- not as literal stories, but as lessons meant to be read and learned from. I believe in the lessons themselves, because reading deeper, they are awfully important life lessons, most of them. Some followers, the smart ones, will be saying this. You are trying to argue with a fundamentalists perspective of the Bible, when that is not what I am giving you at all.

It is written specifically in the way of a metaphor, and is clearly meant to be interpreted as such. Now, siimply because some morons interpret it some ways which seem very literal and/or foolish, does not mean those morons' interpretations are correct. There are many right-minded Christians/theists, as I said, who are appalled at notions like the Fundamentalist God interpretation and all of its meanings.

Then, please show me these specifics which show it to be metaphorical. Also, unless these vague 'specifics' indicate that the whole thing, including God, is just a metaphor, then I will also need to see where it says which parts are metaphors.

Again, it says they are metaphors by the self-evident nature of metaphors. You do not need to be told the book about lizards taking over the world is a metaphor for communism- it simply is a metaphor for communism.

You claim that if the entire Bible is metaphorical, then that must mean God is metaphorical, too. Not so. The Bible is a series of stories which are metaphors for God and His lessons and His nature. You seem to think Christianity, Christian beliefs, and the Christian God all must come from the Bible. Again, not so.

My faith is very heavily based on my interpretation and observation of the real world. My interpretation of the Bible then, too, is based on what I have learned from the real world. I also base my knowledge of God on experiences and observations made from the real world- at least, my subjective experience of it[the real world].

But that God is clearly not real, or we'd be looking at an awfully traumatizing world, wouldn't we?

Yeah, that's kind of my point. Setting aside though whether he's real, do you think highly of his morals? Do you worship him due to being truly infatuated and in love with him, or because you are ordered to?

I am indeed truly in love with God. You seem to think that means I am speaking about a literal Biblical interpretation of God, and I state a third time: not so. To understand my beliefs and my faith, you must first understand God. Something Atheists are simply incapable of doing.

You mention that the Bible is the 'inspired word of God' in your post, and to some degree I have come to find that phrase an obnoxious one. It has continually misleadmany a Christian and atheist for some time now. When you look at that, you are assuming that it means the Bible is literally God's word, written down by people who heard it of Him. Wen I look at the term 'inspired word of God', I believe that it means the Bible is a book written by human men, inspired by God and God's 'word' as they understood it.

I'll stop mocking its so called inspiration when xtians stop claiming it IS magically inspired. If you don't believe it's inspired by some deity, and that mere humans wrote it, then why is it given divine status among xtians? If it is not inspired, why do you believe the claims of magic inside?

I believe it is inspired by God; I don't believe it is written by God. I will try to rephrase this: the way a movie can be 'inspired by true events', so to is the Bible inspired by God. It is a book written about God by men. They may not portray everything accurately, they may not protray everything honestly; but what they are attempting to portray is still something they believe in and have encountered- somethig they have been inspired by.

I hope that makes more sense.

The term 'Word' here does not mean a literal word of mouth. Once again, you must read into it, and be smart enough to apply your own life-learnings to it to understand the meaning of the 'Word.'

Yeah, yeah, nothing's literal, sure, sure. Except when conveniently fitting in with what you want to believe anyways. I guess I've heard it before. 'That one doesn't count, it's a metaphor, and that one has a different context because of the year it was then, and that one is real - if you question it you will go to hell.....' Until all of you claiming to be christians can agree on what is metaphorical, and can show why this is the case, I must assume that the authours of the bible intended it to be believed the way it is written.

And once more; any right-minded Christian or theist will tell you that the Bible is not to be applied to real life; life is to be applied to the Bible, and then and only the is the Bible supposed to be re-applied to life. Because then and only then will the Bible begin to make sense. Any right-minded Christian or theist will tell you that the Bible is a collection of allegorical and metaphorical stories meant to embody God and spread His teachings in ways that we humans can understand. It is a book about God; not of God, at least not exactly.

[Scented Nectar]

It does say that the Bible is a metaphor...in a metaphorical way.

Oh stop, you're killing me!!!! I have no response to this.

You must read into it to actually see and understand the metaphor. I have told you, the Bible is written in such a way as to allude to a metaphor. That's how you recognize metaphors, you know. Again, when you read a book, do you discern every single character's views to be that of the author? If so, you must have a very negative view of some authors...

If the book is presented as nonfiction, then yes, I figure that what is stated as fact is also part of the authour's view on the matter. Especially when the nonfictional book directly tells people to do horrible crimes without any 'just kidding' disclaimers.

Say a book is about a species of lizards that take over the planet, but the underlying theme is a metaphor for communism. Do you simply read the book as being about a species of lizards that take over the planet, or do you read deeper, the way you are supposed to with books, and find the underlying communism metaphor?

If the book is trying to factually state that lizards are indeed trying to take over the planet, then I really have no really to suspect it's really the communists who are causing problems this time. It's those lizards I'll be suspicious of.

And I do believe in the stuff written in the Bible- not as literal stories, but as lessons meant to be read and learned from. I believe in the lessons themselves, because reading deeper, they are awfully important life lessons, most of them. Some followers, the smart ones, will be saying this. You are trying to argue with a fundamentalists perspective of the Bible, when that is not what I am giving you at all.

I have to take the bible rulebook as the default. If you feel that the fundie xtians are the closest to following that rulebook/claimbook, it has nothing to do with my decision to stick with the official thing as being the most correct interpretation available to what was originally meant at the start of this religion of yours (despite of course, all its various authours and retranslations). The fact that you have somehow gotten some personal growth from this story collection is also just incidental or accidental or something. The book and the religion based on it are being touted as the truth right from within the book itself.

Again, it says they are metaphors by the self-evident nature of metaphors. You do not need to be told the book about lizards taking over the world is a metaphor for communism- it simply is a metaphor for communism.

I actually WOULD need to be told that, especially if the book is being presented as nonfiction. The next time one of those wacky conspiracy nuts talks about the queen of England being a secret alien lizard person, I will now know, but only thanks to you telling me, that she is a secret alien lizard COMMIE person. I was fooled. I thought she was a card carrying monarchist!

You claim that if the entire Bible is metaphorical, then that must mean God is metaphorical, too. Not so. The Bible is a series of stories which are metaphors for God and His lessons and His nature.

How did you come to that conclusion? Where does it state that the stories are metaphors but the magical invisible god is really real?

You seem to think Christianity, Christian beliefs, and the Christian God all must come from the Bible. Again, not so.

No. The original roots to the stories have been shown to be older than the old testament, so therefore some elements predate not only xtianity, but also judaism and the old testament. The elements specific to the branch of the abrahamic religions called christianity though, such as some guy named Jesus really being a god, do all come from the bible. It's good though that you seem to be going outside of the bibles for finding your way in life, since the bible is a very cruel and immoral book in my opinion.

My faith is very heavily based on my interpretation and observation of the real world. My interpretation of the Bible then, too, is based on what I have learned from the real world. I also base my knowledge of God on experiences and observations made from the real world- at least, my subjective experience of it[the real world].

To each their own, but rather than faith in things that don't even have any indications they might exist, much less evidence, I prefer to base my belief on what actually IS, things that are REAL.

I am indeed truly in love with God.

Wow. To the point of worship? Stalkable, obsessed worship? What other than that or maybe Stockholm's syndrome could make you even LIKE someone with the sociopathic morals of the xtian god? Yikes!!!!

You seem to think that means I am speaking about a literal Biblical interpretation of God, and I state a third time: not so. To understand my beliefs and my faith, you must first understand God. Something Atheists are simply incapable of doing.

If you don't believe in biblegod, then I'll duck out of this conversation, since your personal opinion of whatever your god is supposed to be, is totally unknowable to me. I thought you were some sort of christian.

I believe it is inspired by God; I don't believe it is written by God. I will try to rephrase this: the way a movie can be 'inspired by true events', so to is the Bible inspired by God. It is a book written about God by men. They may not portray everything accurately, they may not protray everything honestly; but what they are attempting to portray is still something they believe in and have encountered- somethig they have been inspired by.

A movie inspired by true events usually doesn't add magical elements and give horrible orders to commit crimes, unless of course the real life character was magical and immoral, but whatever...

I hope that makes more sense.

Not really. It clearly displays the nonsense of it all. Leave the cult, christians. The hell threat is not real, and I think that fear of it is what keeps you from accepting reality, 'just in case it's real' or something.

And once more; any right-minded Christian or theist will tell you that the Bible is not to be applied to real life; life is to be applied to the Bible, and then and only the is the Bible supposed to be re-applied to life. Because then and only then will the Bible begin to make sense. Any right-minded Christian or theist will tell you that the Bible is a collection of allegorical and metaphorical stories meant to embody God and spread His teachings in ways that we humans can understand. It is a book about God; not of God, at least not exactly.

Oh no, not the 'well, they're not real christians like I am' excuse. Surely not that one. I give up.

---

Please show me that part

Please show me this part

Nah, too much work, and anyways, I think you know full well it's all there.

Would you really get wet if you didn't use an umbrella? Yes.

If the 'rain'like threat of hell were real, I would indeed use an umbrella. It would have holes though, as I would be unable to do the thought requirements.

Is doing bad stuff detrimental to yourself? Yes

Sometimes, but sometimes it's only detrimental to others. Doesn't matter though, since I don't think disobeying the many silly demands like worship are detrimental. Do you?

Is God counter natural? No

Belief/searching in explanations is quite natural, but the actual existance of your god is not. There is absolutely nothing in nature indicating the existance of any gods at all.

[fr0d0]

One of the 10 Commandments is : "You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." There is nothing in there about ACTION. It is purely about controlling your thoughts.

I bet you think the laws of the land are mind control too right?

Thing is, as a Christian I consider myself on a level with those laws.

The 10 commandments were given to a people who needed rules to live by after emerging from slavery to the Egyptians. We are not 'under' the rules but liberated 'by' them.

You have to be illogical to hold your point of view.

---

Please show me that part

Please show me this part

Nah, too much work, and anyways, I think you know full well it's all there.

No, I know it isn't there. Hence the request.

Would you really get wet if you didn't use an umbrella? Yes.

If the 'rain'like threat of hell were real, I would indeed use an umbrella. It would have holes though, as I would be unable to do the thought requirements.

See the bible says it doesn't matter if your umbrella has holes. you're still forgiven. Pretty nice huh?

Is doing bad stuff detrimental to yourself? Yes

Sometimes, but sometimes it's only detrimental to others. Doesn't matter though, since I don't think disobeying the many silly demands like worship are detrimental. Do you?

I'd say it's usually detrimental to others, but then that's changing the subject : you. It's not so much a demand, and a natural response to give credit where it's due. If a person was all take and no give, I guess you'd consider them poorly. Same applies here... should you be considered favourably or unfavourably?

Is God counter natural? No

Belief/searching in explanations is quite natural, but the actual existance of your god is not. There is absolutely nothing in nature indicating the existance of any gods at all.

And this has relevance how?

"Actual existence" is a question of empirical knowledge. Only an idiot would require empirical knowledge of a non temporal entity. Is that you?

[Scented Nectar]

The 10 commandments were given to a people who needed rules to live by after emerging from slavery to the Egyptians.

Why wouldn't God have given them perfected rules then? Why give them defective ones? I'm really beginning to doubt this god's skills you know. Why didn't he do it right the first time? And please don't say it was in context for the time. Injustice and cruelty are never ok just because of what year it happens to be. That's insane.

We are not 'under' the rules but liberated 'by' them.

No. Rules are a restriction of freedom. When it's a good and just rule, it restricts only the freedom to harm others like in murder or theft. When it's a bad rule, like your god's rule against thinking nice thoughts about other gods, that also is a restriction of freedom, but an injust restriction. so, just or not, it's still a restriction of a freedom. How on earth does following your god's rules liberate? Are you referring to the freedom from being penalized should you not have followed the rules?

Nah, too much work, and anyways, I think you know full well it's all there.

No, I know it isn't there. Hence the request.

Nah, still too much work to go find quotes and chapter references. I'm content with you pretending that the stuff in the bible isn't there and that I'm making it up.

See the bible says it doesn't matter if your umbrella has holes. you're still forgiven. Pretty nice huh?

No, it's not nice. I did nothing wrong. What is there to forgive? Not only is that not nice, but it's fucking unpleasant. Some god gets all jealous that I partied in my thoughts with my brain fairies, threatens me with eternal torture, and then says he'll forgive me? What the fuck kind of creep would do that? You forgot to mention of course, that in order to get that oh so nice forgiveness, the victim must do some major apologizing/asskissing/agreement-to-start-worshipping, etc. If your god was going to end up forgiving everyone because he's not really such a mean guy as to torture people forever, why would there even be the hell you believe exists? Is hell a metaphor meant to keep us humans in line since we are too stupid to understand common sense instead?

I don't think disobeying the many silly demands like worship are detrimental. Do you?

I'd say it's usually detrimental to others, but then that's changing the subject : you. It's not so much a demand, and a natural response to give credit where it's due. If a person was all take and no give, I guess you'd consider them poorly. Same applies here... should you be considered favourably or unfavourably?

Please prove how me not worshipping your god is detrimental to others around me. As for giving credit, why? If your god proved to me that he made the universe and is instilling his cruel and unnecessary rules for me to live under, why should I let him know I give him credit for it, is he worried that I will claim it as my own? This is ridiculous. Remember also, that the xtian god does not just want acknowlegement of his feats, he also wants praise for them. Praise. About a cruel and nonsensical reward/punishment system. Come on, really! I'm not good at self delusion, but if I thought hell were real, I'd be scared enough to give it a good try. You bet I would think nice thoughts about him. Maybe I'd even try to masturbate about him! Nah, he's pretty ugly in every pic I've seen. I take that part back!

Is God counter natural? No

Belief/searching in explanations is quite natural, but the actual existance of your god is not. There is absolutely nothing in nature indicating the existance of any gods at all.

And this has relevance how?

In that you say God is natural. Since your god is not found in nature at all, well, you know...

"Actual existence" is a question of empirical knowledge. Only an idiot would require empirical knowledge of a non temporal entity. Is that you?

I must be, that is if being an idiot means I think you are completely saying the above as an excuse for having zero zip nadda zilch squat evidence, or even any indicators that any gods exist, much less your particular variation of one who needs one earth species to telepathically reassure him that he is the cat's pajamas.

[tackattack]

I don't think you video was spammy at all.

Wow, a lot of stuff to respond to. I'll try to stick to just the questions. Firstly your youtube video. Without heaven or hell I would still thank and worship God for the opportunities he's given me, yes. I now don't fear God or expect reward, so neither really apply. My God doesn't expet me to deny my feelings, in fact my true feeling (when selfless) are required to follow God accurately. I do agree with his my own morals. They don't preclude me from my religion and are in line with Christianity. I don't love and worship dictators, or nut jobs. I think what you see as a threat, is not focused on as much worldwide, from the religions, as you've probably experienced in you local area (wherever that may be).
I'll assume you can webster for yourself.. so I'll give you my biblical standpoints on the following:
-What is worship? obeying not the "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15: 9). It can be public or private, acknowledging that someone or something else is greater, and worthy of striving towards.
-What is acceptance into the heart? to fully trust and pledge allgiance to in your heart (the original Greek pisteuo is a much better word)
-What is love? You're going to have to be more specific on this one if you want an answer
-What is belief? Mental acceptance of or conviction in the truth or actuality of something (common connotation implies with proof)
-but would your all loving god really torture people forever just because they were not able to think praises about him without faking it?
A God is not all loving in the sense you're using it. B. If God has a choice between torture and mercy.. it would probably depend on the individuals choices not God's whim
-Why would your god even need his emotions pandered to in such an immature way?
A. God doesn't need B. "pandering" would be a choice from reverence by the prostrate, not out of requirement.

The Bible isn't perfect, but it is inspired

---

2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

---

you must be thinking of the Qu'ran being a perfect holy book. I will conceed that a majority of Christians feel it is a perfect reflection of God's truth. A literal and fundamentalist approach I believe would be in the minority of the religio of Christianity as a whole, but I have no numbers for that. I personally tend to think of it as man's vain attempt to figure out God, after all, God didn't request we make the thing.

-do you think highly of his morals? Yes, he would be a moral "north pole" as it were.
-Do you worship him due to being truly infatuated and in love with him, or because you are ordered to? between those two choices I'd choose a although we probably have different meanings for the word love
-why is it given divine status among xtians? I don't know. I only give it slightly more status than a math professor gives his calculator.
-why do you believe the claims of magic inside? I don't believe in magic as you're using it now. Most, if not all, miracles have been/will be proven by scientific means to be naural aside from possibly resurrection. Theese natural signs were a more primitive man's signs that God was working in their lives. I still see God's hand in every drop of rain and bolt of lightning, every flower and face.

If you could quote a verse where it says if you question the Bible you will burn forever in hell it would be most helpfull. Being a Christian doesn't necessarily mean you cna't think for yourself and question those beliefs. Nor does being worshipfull require the complacency of a sheel tied to a tether as is commonly believed by atheists I've spoken with.

Perhaps you could explain to me your views on "About a cruel and nonsensical reward/punishment system." because I'm not seeing your perspective at all on that one.

-If your god was going to end up forgiving everyone because he's not really such a mean guy as to torture people forever, why would there even be the hell you believe exists?
Once again, he doesn't forgive everyone. I can't see, without major long term social evolution , the possiblity that every human will completely agree on an idea as complex as God. Hell exists, according to reveleations, as a place after the judgement day for the unqualified to go.

-Why wouldn't God have given them perfected rules then? Why give them defective ones?
God did Give us "perfect rules" which were then smashed out of frustration and anger, and we had to then generalize. We got that wrong, then Jesus came to give us the inside scoop. It's still our choice to follow those rules or not.
I agree rules are a restriction of freedom. Would you prefer no rules? Nature seems to prefer rules.

" the one they think their god had written through divine magical inspiration for them." Someone's delusion in believing God writes things down for us is none of my concern.

-So, you are saying that a person who focuses on their own survival and happiness and the real world around them instead of placating and reassuring an imaginary supermonster through telepathy that he is so wonderful, is deserving of eternal torture?????? No, I'm saying a wholly self-centered person, who's only happiness resides in rejecting all for ignorance, greed, or self-deciet is not wothy of getting an eternal "golden ticket" and gets to fend for themselves wherever they are.

-"It's only sad when someone blindly accepts everything as being second-guess-worthy just because they want to trust the source, without thinking as to whether they agree or not. Otherwise, feedback is great and certainly is a big part of personal change and development." I would also say it's sad when somone ony uses themselves as a source, always trusts in it and has no need to disagree with tihemselves. Luckily I think we both operate somewhere in the middle.

quote] God did create evil. Sin is simply a rejection of God, that's not something he created, unless you mean indirectly by giving us choice. God also created the devil and uses him to test us.. that's biblical.. why would I ever assume anything different. Who are theese people you're calling Christians? I don't think God wants to get rid of evil.. I think it's integral to growth?

No getting away with calling it 'indirect'. Either the fucker made everything or he didn't. And how is being tortured forever integral to growth? There is no afterwards to forever. When does the godvictim apply such a horribly learned 'growth'? Do you really think that your god is a nice guy if he 'tests' his beloved children, knowing that many will fail, when the result of failing means the testees will be tortured forever???? WTF kind of sick creep are you worshipping?[/quote]
I don't sin is a creation for him to creat. It's the absense of God, therefore unless you can go grab a darkness-flashlight I think you're not getting it. God did create evil. Hell is for eternity, but that's after Hades and the judgement. Growth is for the living. I don't think testing me changes my opinion of whether he's "nice" or not. It's called evaluation of worth, checking of standards, looking after the development. Schools tests our kids.. does that make them less nice?


-"If you want to play the 'that part's not really real' game, then would you admit that maybe your god is not real either? Nothing in the bible saying that you are to see him as a real being, after all...."
I fully admit the possibility that God is not real I fully grant that I have no proofs of God's existence. I don't relaly like games myself.

"At the threat of eternal torture, there are probably quite a lot of immoral things I would do, like the immoral rules of biblegod. Everyone has a breaking point. The only god command I would not be able, as opposed to unwilling, to do would be anything involving thought, such as commands to love him, worship him (in the emotional rather than recited words meaning), etc."
If you would like to discuss your percieved immorality of God's commandments, perhaps that would be a great new thread.
Thank you for your earnestness in your questions, and your humor.

[Scented Nectar]

Without heaven or hell I would still thank and worship God for the opportunities he's given me, yes. I now don't fear God or expect reward, so neither really apply.

That's fair. I don't think biblegod would be worthy of such positive feelings no matter how skilled he had been at creating things, but I would fully support your right to freedom of thought, even if your thoughts were that you liked this guy.

My God doesn't expet me to deny my feelings, in fact my true feeling (when selfless) are required to follow God accurately.

If that were the case, there would be no expectations at all of positive god-thoughts. Nothing about praise, thanks, worship, even plain old belief. Such a god would not be so petty as to need the attention and glory. Are you sure you are a christian? A deist or a theist, yes, but a christian? Maybe an offshoot or merging of christianity with your own inner personal concept of god, but it's pretty clear that the christian god expects you to think about how wonderful he is.

I do agree with his my own morals. They don't preclude me from my religion and are in line with Christianity. I don't love and worship dictators, or nut jobs.

Biblegod is quite a dictator. No other religions allowed or you're killed, gays are killed, free women are killed, slavery is promoted and endorsed, etc. Even the part 2, new testament, says to keep these old laws in place. Many christians think part 2 changes things for a nicer kinder gentler set of laws, but it doesn't. Even if it did, it wouldn't change the fact that people of previous times had to suffer because of them.

I think what you see as a threat, is not focused on as much worldwide, from the religions, as you've probably experienced in you local area (wherever that may be).

Are you talking about the claimed threat of hell that religions use on their believers, or the way religions have threatened/affected my personal life?

-What is worship? obeying not the "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15: 9). It can be public or private, acknowledging that someone or something else is greater, and worthy of striving towards.

There should be absolutely no requirement for it at all, not even an expectation or hope of such a thing. Why would a god need any acknowledgement of his deeds from the creatures he made? This does not make sense. At all.

-What is acceptance into the heart? to fully trust and pledge allgiance to in your heart (the original Greek pisteuo is a much better word)

This should be a completely voluntary, spontaneous emotion for a person to feel about another, never ever demanded. That is fucking sick to demand things like that. Everyone hopes for others to like them, but to demand it is creepy or something. Ick. I'm picturing God wearing one of those 'something's wrong with that guy' hats, as found in this funny video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15S0g8pG6HU

-What is love? You're going to have to be more specific on this one if you want an answer

I dislike any serious use of the word 'love', as it has too many meanings and often comes attached to tons of baggage. That goes for the use of the word in both the ordinary and romantic senses, but unless God gets you horny, I'll assume we are talking about the ordinary use of the word. However, regardless of the different definitions, they all refer to some form of liking, or being fond of, the one who is loved.

-What is belief? Mental acceptance of or conviction in the truth or actuality of something (common connotation implies with proof)

There is no reason at all for a god to need us to believe in his existence. If there were some reason that this were important, he would have simply made us already believing instinctually from birth, without fail.

A God is not all loving in the sense you're using it. B. If God has a choice between torture and mercy.. it would probably depend on the individuals choices not God's whim

Nonsense, no one would choose torture over mercy. That's ridiculous. Are you saying that hell is real, but only has a few really severe masochists in it? Also, probably means you are not really sure, which tells me you are scared of hell, as you must be if your authority figure is going to decide it for you.

-Why would your god even need his emotions pandered to in such an immature way?
A. God doesn't need B. "pandering" would be a choice from reverence by the prostrate, not out of requirement.

Then there would be no requirement or even expectation of all the positive thought laws. God would simply be maybe a bit happy if people did this now and then, the same way we all are when someone else does or thinks something nice towards us.

The Bible isn't perfect, but it is inspired

---

2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

---

you must be thinking of the Qu'ran being a perfect holy book. I will conceed that a majority of Christians feel it is a perfect reflection of God's truth. A literal and fundamentalist approach I believe would be in the minority of the religio of Christianity as a whole, but I have no numbers for that. I personally tend to think of it as man's vain attempt to figure out God, after all, God didn't request we make the thing.

Then you shouldn't give the claims in it any more credibility or consideration than the thousands of other philosophy/religion books written by humans. To call yourself a christian means that you specifically follow the bible, which is the sole result of all the writings made-for/collected about the Jesus Christ being a god myth.

-do you think highly of his morals? Yes, he would be a moral "north pole" as it were.

Yikes, maybe you should read the bible before you agree so quickly. Otherwise I will be scared to be around you. Your god would have me killed many times over by now, as well as being sentenced multiply to eternal torture, for many nonharmful 'crimes'.

-Do you worship him due to being truly infatuated and in love with him, or because you are ordered to? between those two choices I'd choose a although we probably have different meanings for the word love

The christian god doesn't let you keep that choice. You are ordered to love him. I have no problem with people choosing to love whoever they want, it's when it is ordered or expected that I have a problem with it.

-why is it given divine status among xtians? I don't know. I only give it slightly more status than a math professor gives his calculator.

Then you are taking it as the truth, or as close as one can get short of manufacturing/typo errors in the factories that make calculators and print bibles. Why do you think those humans who wrote it have any more knowledge of the true nature of your god than you do? How do they know anything for sure about it more than what you yourself feel inside you regarding the possibility and personality of a god?

-why do you believe the claims of magic inside? I don't believe in magic as you're using it now. Most, if not all, miracles have been/will be proven by scientific means to be naural aside from possibly resurrection. Theese natural signs were a more primitive man's signs that God was working in their lives. I still see God's hand in every drop of rain and bolt of lightning, every flower and face.

Then that's not a god, that's nature or the reality around you. As for the resurrection, there is a theory I read about the possibility of a planned hoax at the time to make it look like the predicted messiah had happened. The theory has it that the vinegar he was given while on the cross might have contained mandrake/cannabis and whatever to cause the same type of coma-like states that the fakirs in India go into. This would have resulted in him appearing dead and taken down before he had been up there long enough to actually die, etc. Like the shroud of turin, but back then the gullible were in larger numbers. That is of course, if any resurrection-like event even happened, since there are no writings that were actually made at the time about it.

If you could quote a verse where it says if you question the Bible you will burn forever in hell it would be most helpfull.

I don't know about questioning the bible itself, but there are tons of think-nice-thoughts-about-me commands throughout the book.

Perhaps you could explain to me your views on "About a cruel and nonsensical reward/punishment system." because I'm not seeing your perspective at all on that one.

Even for a murderer, eternal punishment is too much and serves no purpose anyways. Why would a creator god want to punish his own creations? If they were doing something he didn't like, he could wiggle his nose and change it instantly. Why punish? Does he need revenge on himself, being that it's his own creation and he is everything etc? Oh yeah, the bible says he is vengeful, what the fuck? Is that a perfect emotion one should expect from a god?

-If your god was going to end up forgiving everyone because he's not really such a mean guy as to torture people forever, why would there even be the hell you believe exists?
Once again, he doesn't forgive everyone. I can't see, without major long term social evolution , the possiblity that every human will completely agree on an idea as complex as God. Hell exists, according to reveleations, as a place after the judgement day for the unqualified to go.

If someone applied for a job at my pretend company Heaven, and they weren't qualified, I wouldn't invite them into Heaven, but I wouldn't punish them either. Why doesn't your god simply have the unqualified die unpunished. There is no need for a hell, other than to scare you believers into following the doctrines of the ruling church and contributing your money to its support.

-Why wouldn't God have given them perfected rules then? Why give them defective ones?
God did Give us "perfect rules" which were then smashed out of frustration and anger, and we had to then generalize. We got that wrong, then Jesus came to give us the inside scoop. It's still our choice to follow those rules or not.
I agree rules are a restriction of freedom. Would you prefer no rules? Nature seems to prefer rules.

Nature has no intent or deservedness to its rules. Gravity doesn't care if your thoughts are approved or not, you will be affected by it either way. The rules humans make can be good ones or bad ones. The ones based on religions are often bad as they are frequently unjust, and they refuse to adjust or update thinking they are already perfect. And your god-rules were never perfect by the way. They human made rules of modern secular societies are far more just and good than biblegod's rules ever were.

" the one they think their god had written through divine magical inspiration for them." Someone's delusion in believing God writes things down for us is none of my concern.

But it is, since you call yourself a christian. Almost all christian doctine and belief is based on that book.

-So, you are saying that a person who focuses on their own survival and happiness and the real world around them instead of placating and reassuring an imaginary supermonster through telepathy that he is so wonderful, is deserving of eternal torture?????? No, I'm saying a wholly self-centered person, who's only happiness resides in rejecting all for ignorance, greed, or self-deciet is not wothy of getting an eternal "golden ticket" and gets to fend for themselves wherever they are.

Even someone with a really really shitty personality is not worthy of eternal torture. Hell is not simply fending for oneself where ever one happens to be. It's said to be a place you are sent to against your will for doing nothing wrong, and where you are not allowed to even die and stop the pain, ever. Think about this. Please don't gloss it over or downplay it.

-"It's only sad when someone blindly accepts everything as being second-guess-worthy just because they want to trust the source, without thinking as to whether they agree or not. Otherwise, feedback is great and certainly is a big part of personal change and development." I would also say it's sad when somone ony uses themselves as a source, always trusts in it and has no need to disagree with tihemselves. Luckily I think we both operate somewhere in the middle.

No, I don't think you trust yourself enough, even to a middle ground, or you wouldn't be accepting christianity. Also, I think of myself as trusting myself to a higher than middleground degree. This is because all my experiences and perceptions and thoughts are in me. This gives me a high level of comfort and trust in that what is proven sufficiently to me, can be accepted by me with a very high level of trust. In dealing with other people telling me they believe something to be true, that trust is not there until they prove the info in such a manner that I believe it too.

I don't sin is a creation for him to creat. It's the absense of God, therefore unless you can go grab a darkness-flashlight I think you're not getting it. God did create evil. Hell is for eternity, but that's after Hades and the judgement. Growth is for the living. I don't think testing me changes my opinion of whether he's "nice" or not. It's called evaluation of worth, checking of standards, looking after the development. Schools tests our kids.. does that make them less nice?

Schools don't (or shouldn't!) punish the ones who don't learn the required stuff. Sure they are not rewarded with the higher paying jobs later due to not having the skills, but they are not tortured forever, not even for a few hours. And how can there be an absense of god? Isn't he everywhere, in everything, etc? No getting away with saying your god didn't create evil. If he created everything, then he created his own alleged enemy too, meaning evil, satan, etc.

-"If you want to play the 'that part's not really real' game, then would you admit that maybe your god is not real either? Nothing in the bible saying that you are to see him as a real being, after all...."
I fully admit the possibility that God is not real I fully grant that I have no proofs of God's existence. I don't relaly like games myself.

Good, then if that is the case, I would like to consider you agnostic, or maybe simply a hopeful deist? My respect level goes up towards believers who will not blindly accept what other humans tell them their personal god should be. That also means they will be guided by their own true inner morals (even if they think a god is telling them) instead of what an organized religion is telling them.

If you would like to discuss your percieved immorality of God's commandments, perhaps that would be a great new thread.
Thank you for your earnestness in your questions, and your humor.

Same to you. You're not as annoying as some believers I argue with! I fully reserve the right though, to get mega annoyed with your views at any time in future at my discretion, blah blah [/end disclaimer].

[Watson]

It does say that the Bible is a metaphor...in a metaphorical way.

Oh stop, you're killing me!!!! I have no response to this.

You don't, do you?

You must read into it to actually see and understand the metaphor. I have told you, the Bible is written in such a way as to allude to a metaphor. That's how you recognize metaphors, you know. Again, when you read a book, do you discern every single character's views to be that of the author? If so, you must have a very negative view of some authors...

If the book is presented as nonfiction, then yes, I figure that what is stated as fact is also part of the authour's view on the matter. Especially when the nonfictional book directly tells people to do horrible crimes without any 'just kidding' disclaimers.

The 'nonfiction' element is the metaphor. The lessons that the Bible is preaching are real life lessons which can be applied to anyone's lifestyle; the stories themselves are simply metaphors for how God works, and don't necessarily have to be true, real life events.

Say a book is about a species of lizards that take over the planet, but the underlying theme is a metaphor for communism. Do you simply read the book as being about a species of lizards that take over the planet, or do you read deeper, the way you are supposed to with books, and find the underlying communism metaphor?

If the book is trying to factually state that lizards are indeed trying to take over the planet, then I really have no really to suspect it's really the communists who are causing problems this time. It's those lizards I'll be suspicious of.

The book is not trying to factually state that lizards are trying to take over the world; it is, however, factually stating that communists are a threat and a problem, through the use of a metaphor that readers can relate to.

The Bible is the same way. A story promoting a factual lifestyle and it's application to life, through use of metaphorical stories that the reader can relate to.

And I do believe in the stuff written in the Bible- not as literal stories, but as lessons meant to be read and learned from. I believe in the lessons themselves, because reading deeper, they are awfully important life lessons, most of them. Some followers, the smart ones, will be saying this. You are trying to argue with a fundamentalists perspective of the Bible, when that is not what I am giving you at all.

I have to take the bible rulebook as the default. If you feel that the fundie xtians are the closest to following that rulebook/claimbook, it has nothing to do with my decision to stick with the official thing as being the most correct interpretation available to what was originally meant at the start of this religion of yours (despite of course, all its various authours and retranslations). The fact that you have somehow gotten some personal growth from this story collection is also just incidental or accidental or something. The book and the religion based on it are being touted as the truth right from within the book itself.

And from what I have experienced, the book and the religion based on it are the truth. Not the stories themselves, of course, but the lessons the Bible imparts have proven to be quite helpful, truthful, and beneficial to me. This is not incidental or accidental, and you cannot simply write it off as such.

Again, it says they are metaphors by the self-evident nature of metaphors. You do not need to be told the book about lizards taking over the world is a metaphor for communism- it simply is a metaphor for communism.

I actually WOULD need to be told that, especially if the book is being presented as nonfiction. The next time one of those wacky conspiracy nuts talks about the queen of England being a secret alien lizard person, I will now know, but only thanks to you telling me, that she is a secret alien lizard COMMIE person. I was fooled. I thought she was a card carrying monarchist!

Again, the story within the book itself about lizards is not being presented as nonfiction; the metaphor for communists, since commies do in fact exist, is.

You claim that if the entire Bible is metaphorical, then that must mean God is metaphorical, too. Not so. The Bible is a series of stories which are metaphors for God and His lessons and His nature.

How did you come to that conclusion? Where does it state that the stories are metaphors but the magical invisible god is really real?

I have observed God in real life and the nature in which He works. When I read the Bible, I find it to be pretty accurate in it's metaphorical depiction of God and His lessons. I came to the conclusion that He Himself is not metaphorical on my own; and I came to the conclusion that the Bible is a series of metaphors for Him because, well, obviously it was not written by God. It was written by men, about God.

You seem to think Christianity, Christian beliefs, and the Christian God all must come from the Bible. Again, not so.

No. The original roots to the stories have been shown to be older than the old testament, so therefore some elements predate not only xtianity, but also judaism and the old testament. The elements specific to the branch of the abrahamic religions called christianity though, such as some guy named Jesus really being a god, do all come from the bible. It's good though that you seem to be going outside of the bibles for finding your way in life, since the bible is a very cruel and immoral book in my opinion.

I do not find the book to be cruel and immoral at all; there are certain parts within that do, indeed, reflect the time period in which it was written, but those parts are innaccurate according to my understanding of God.

Yes, certain stories and certain parts of the Bible predate all of the religions which are an off-shoot of Judaism and the Old testament, etc., etc. I see this as further proof of my point. It illustrates that, even before the Bible was written in it's original form, people were passing down stories and allegoies about how God and His nature worked and existed in our world.

My faith is very heavily based on my interpretation and observation of the real world. My interpretation of the Bible then, too, is based on what I have learned from the real world. I also base my knowledge of God on experiences and observations made from the real world- at least, my subjective experience of it[the real world].

To each their own, but rather than faith in things that don't even have any indications they might exist, much less evidence, I prefer to base my belief on what actually IS, things that are REAL.

And to me, there are many, many indications that God exists. God gives you exactly what you want to make of life; you perceive a world without God, you get a world that appears to have no God. You perceive a world that does have a God, and you get a world which reveals itself to have proof of God everywhere.

I am indeed truly in love with God.

Wow. To the point of worship? Stalkable, obsessed worship?

Worship, yes, because I know of God's power and His nature. Obviously not in a creepy, stalker kind of way.

What other than that or maybe Stockholm's syndrome could make you even LIKE someone with the sociopathic morals of the xtian god? Yikes!!!!

Again, as I stated before; the morals alluded to in the Bible are not sociopathic or evil, if you read deeper into the stories and find the true meaning below the surface of the story. To do this, I must apply my real-life experiences to the Bible, and my observations of the world around me.

You seem to think that means I am speaking about a literal Biblical interpretation of God, and I state a third time: not so. To understand my beliefs and my faith, you must first understand God. Something Atheists are simply incapable of doing.

If you don't believe in biblegod, then I'll duck out of this conversation, since your personal opinion of whatever your god is supposed to be, is totally unknowable to me. I thought you were some sort of christian.

I am a Christian. I believe in the teachings of Christianity.

I believe it is inspired by God; I don't believe it is written by God. I will try to rephrase this: the way a movie can be 'inspired by true events', so to is the Bible inspired by God. It is a book written about God by men. They may not portray everything accurately, they may not protray everything honestly; but what they are attempting to portray is still something they believe in and have encountered- somethig they have been inspired by.

A movie inspired by true events usually doesn't add magical elements and give horrible orders to commit crimes, unless of course the real life character was magical and immoral, but whatever...

If the movie inspired by true events is trying to relate a real life character who is very nearly incomprehensible in uncertain terms, then it is easier to convey the story through allegory and metaphor than it is through telling the real tale. No one will understand the real tale except those who were involved and those who have had similar experiences.

I hope that makes more sense.

Not really. It clearly displays the nonsense of it all. Leave the cult, christians. The hell threat is not real, and I think that fear of it is what keeps you from accepting reality, 'just in case it's real' or something.

That 'or something' at the end damns your argument. You can't figure out why anyone would be Christian, so you just apply some preconceived notion of what you presume to be human nature to the situation, and leave it at that.

I have found Hell to be very real, by the way. I have lived it, and it is quite terrible. But again, you still have no understanding of what Hell or Heaven truly are, so it is quite impossible to discuss them with you until you do.

And once more; any right-minded Christian or theist will tell you that the Bible is not to be applied to real life; life is to be applied to the Bible, and then and only the is the Bible supposed to be re-applied to life. Because then and only then will the Bible begin to make sense. Any right-minded Christian or theist will tell you that the Bible is a collection of allegorical and metaphorical stories meant to embody God and spread His teachings in ways that we humans can understand. It is a book about God; not of God, at least not exactly.

Oh no, not the 'well, they're not real christians like I am' excuse. Surely not that one. I give up.

Well, the definition of being a Christian is to be Christ-like. That is why it is calld Christianity. So, yes, anyone not acting Christ-like is not a real Christian in the simplest sense of the word.

[Scented Nectar]

It does say that the Bible is a metaphor...in a metaphorical way.

Oh stop, you're killing me!!!! I have no response to this.

You don't, do you?

No. It's an endless made up semantic circle game. You can keep saying that the metaphor is a metaphor forever.

The 'nonfiction' element is the metaphor. The lessons that the Bible is preaching are real life lessons which can be applied to anyone's lifestyle; the stories themselves are simply metaphors for how God works, and don't necessarily have to be true, real life events.

No, the metaphor would be the fictional representation of the nonfictional element. If the lessons of nonharmful behaviour being deserving of death at the hands of followers, and other equally horrible lessons are real, then the bible should be considered hate literature. God is being presented as a nonfictional element rather than a metaphor if it explains how he works. So these horrible lessons can't be metaphors for yet something else.

The book is not trying to factually state that lizards are trying to take over the world; it is, however, factually stating that communists are a threat and a problem, through the use of a metaphor that readers can relate to.

If readers can relate to it, then there would be no argument, no debate, no questioning even, as to exactly what the bible is saying humans should do, and what is real vs metaphor and if the latter what's it mean, and the many contradictions, etc. If mere mortal sinful humans have fucked up the holy word of god so bad that the bible is now unclear, why on earth are you following it at all? Find your own answers, not ones from a messed up, inaccurate, often-made-up, uneducated source with a hidden political/financial theocratically-founded agenda like the Abrahamic religions.

The Bible is the same way. A story promoting a factual lifestyle and it's application to life, through use of metaphorical stories that the reader can relate to.

The world has unfortunately seen, and continues to see the result of humans applying the 'facts' of the bible to real life. Not a good track record, I'm afraid.

And from what I have experienced, the book and the religion based on it are the truth. Not the stories themselves, of course, but the lessons the Bible imparts have proven to be quite helpful, truthful, and beneficial to me. This is not incidental or accidental, and you cannot simply write it off as such.

What lessons? Really, what? Specifically. And exclusive to the bible please, eg, almost every religion and nonreligious philosophy has some variation of the don't do to others empathy rule. I'm very interested to know the lessons only the bible can provide. Also, I hope you don't just say something like, well it's different for everyone. Uh uh, we are not talking about a self help book here, we are talking about a set of laws and commands, to be enforced on everyone, believers/nonbelievers alike to affect us our whole lives. And for you believers, you think it will also affect you after you die and forever.

Again, the story within the book itself about lizards is not being presented as nonfiction; the metaphor for communists, since commies do in fact exist, is.

Ok, then when referring to the bible, who are the lizards and who are the commies? Are sin and hellfire the lizards or the commies? Are evil and satan the real threat or just metafuckingphors for something else? If the bible had an important message, it wouldn't play around with metaphors. And in fact it didn't. The writers meant for it to be taken quite seriously and factually. You only want it to be metaphorical because you are trying to make it fit into your own personal life and morals and stuff.

I have observed God in real life and the nature in which He works.

No you haven't. You have observed real life and chalked it up to one version (xtian) of one specific supernatural cause (invisible creator deities) out of the zillions of supernatural causes that the human brain can make up and wonder about.

When I read the Bible, I find it to be pretty accurate in it's metaphorical depiction of God and His lessons.

If it's a metaphor, how do you know it's accurate? And what particular metaphorical depiction(s) of God are you referring to? An example here would be nice.

I came to the conclusion that He Himself is not metaphorical on my own; and I came to the conclusion that the Bible is a series of metaphors for Him because, well, obviously it was not written by God. It was written by men, about God.

So, how did they know anything about God? It's even worse if the metaphors were made up by mere humans, since the very message is whatever the fuck they were thinking at the time. Can't be taken as a holy guide for all.

I do not find the book to be cruel and immoral at all; there are certain parts within that do, indeed, reflect the time period in which it was written, but those parts are innaccurate according to my understanding of God.

Your understanding doesn't count. You can say that to excuse anything immoral or magical in that book. Let's go by what it actually says. If you agree with biblegod's morals and laws to follow on earth, then you are a threat to my life and well being and basic freedom. It's a hideous book. The accidental time period one is born into, is no justification for that group to deserve suffering. Anyways, even your Jesus said something about not abolishing these old laws, but to do the opposite and 'fulfill' them, make them happen, enforce them. Even gave shit to someone for not killing their disobedient children somewhere in there.

Yes, certain stories and certain parts of the Bible predate all of the religions which are an off-shoot of Judaism and the Old testament, etc., etc. I see this as further proof of my point. It illustrates that, even before the Bible was written in it's original form, people were passing down stories and allegoies about how God and His nature worked and existed in our world.

No, it goes further back than the monotheistic Abrahamic god. There is a theory that the Adam and Eve story represented the judeochristian takeover of the previous gnostic and other religions, Eve representing goddess worship common in many of them, and the forbidden tree of life representing the political control over possible earlier shamanic use of cannabis (the jews restricted the oil-anointing and smoke-inhaling of 'cannabosm' to priests and kings they approved of, and the xtians later stopping it altogether), etc. It's plausible as a theory for how the religious misogyny of the last few thousand years or so came about. But even that all goes back further. Xtianity doesn't have it's own starting point. Holidays and many concepts were taken and adapted from various other pre-existing religions. And who knows what speculative deity concepts they came from in earlier times.

And to me, there are many, many indications that God exists. God gives you exactly what you want to make of life; you perceive a world without God, you get a world that appears to have no God. You perceive a world that does have a God, and you get a world which reveals itself to have proof of God everywhere.

There is no need to add a god-filter to the world. No need at all. And what are some of the many, many indications to you that God exists? Seriously, what? And don't be vague.

Worship, yes, because I know of God's power and His nature. Obviously not in a creepy, stalker kind of way.

Even mere mortal rock stars lose respect for fans who worship and adore ad nauseum. Why would your god even like you doing that to him. It is creepy in a stalker sort of way.

Again, as I stated before; the morals alluded to in the Bible are not sociopathic or evil, if you read deeper into the stories and find the true meaning below the surface of the story. To do this, I must apply my real-life experiences to the Bible, and my observations of the world around me.

What are the good morals in the bible? And where in the bible does it say there is a hidden true meaning and that you will find it by applying your personal experiences/observations to it?

I am a Christian. I believe in the teachings of Christianity.

Then you can't not believe that the christian bible is true. You are cherry picking the bible, and adding hidden meanings that you like, and all kinds of excuses to deny that fact that you are not really a christian. You are obviously a deist, but you don't believe the bible to be true or accurate, even though you like its morals. You claim the supernatural/illogical parts are metaphors, etc so you are not a believer in it, are you? Is Jesus's resurrection a metaphor?

If the movie inspired by true events is trying to relate a real life character who is very nearly incomprehensible in uncertain terms, then it is easier to convey the story through allegory and metaphor than it is through telling the real tale. No one will understand the real tale except those who were involved and those who have had similar experiences.

Who cares about who understands it or not. Real life suffering results (and for believers, eternity as well). That book should at least come with a disclaimer, do not do this in real life. We don't really mean it for real when we say to kill or rule over these or those people.

Not really. It clearly displays the nonsense of it all. Leave the cult, christians. The hell threat is not real, and I think that fear of it is what keeps you from accepting reality, 'just in case it's real' or something.

That 'or something' at the end damns your argument. You can't figure out why anyone would be Christian, so you just apply some preconceived notion of what you presume to be human nature to the situation, and leave it at that.

No it doesn't. That was to include other additional possible reasons that people might believe in hell, such as those with self-worthiness issues who feel they deserve punishment for some reason and figure there must be one waiting for them, etc.

I have found Hell to be very real, by the way. I have lived it, and it is quite terrible. But again, you still have no understanding of what Hell or Heaven truly are, so it is quite impossible to discuss them with you until you do.

You have not lived the christian hell. You are not even dead yet. You don't get to call real life bad times, which everyone gets no matter what one's belief in deities, the christian hell. Hell in the xtian bible happens after death, and whether you are sent there is determined by what God thinks of what you did and thought while you were alive on Earth. No making shit up, or you are not really a christian.

Well, the definition of being a Christian is to be Christ-like. That is why it is calld Christianity. So, yes, anyone not acting Christ-like is not a real Christian in the simplest sense of the word.

The only rulebook on how to be christ-like is the christian bible. So, lather rinse repeat.