Abortion is morally wrong

[bennyboy]

And they influence views on the grey areas as well. What about a 14 year old girl getting pregnant? Or better put: what pressure would 'pro life' parents put on their pregnant 14 year old daughter?

I believe they would force her to marry.

In Holland we have State funded anonymous abortions. Best thing to ever happen to girls unlucky enough to have fundamentalist parents. They get pregnant more often because abstination is taught.

abstinence.

[Dystopia]

I keep jars of it ... and other people's.

Well it's still a though question to decide when we can consider an unborn child a human, this is why I can't take a position. I'll be pro choice, then, sounds more reasonable. I think all pro lifers will agree with me that any women should be able to abort in case of rape, life endangering or malformation of the fetus, these are cases that even anti abortion legislation allow frequently since they are the exception and not the norm.

Todd Akin, Representative of Missouri and prominent anti-choice advocate, said “It [pregnancy resulting from rape] seems to be, first of all, from what I understand from doctors, it’s really rare. If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut the whole thing down.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/us/pol....html?_r=0

" "Indiana Republican Senate candidate Richard Mourdock
Mourdock was asked during the final minutes of a debate whether abortion should be allowed in cases of rape or incest.
He replied: “I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that’s something God intended to happen.” "
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/101...z36EFGZgVA

Representative Trent Franks (AZ) wants to ban all abortions because “The incidence of rape resulting in pregnancy are very low.”

Barbara Listing, the president of Right to Life Michigan, thinks if abortion is legal it should cost extra. “It’s simply, like, nobody plans to have an accident in a car accident, nobody plans to have their homes flooded. You have to buy extra insurance for those.”

The last two quotes above from this link:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/11448...liferating


As nice as it is to think anti-choicers are reasonable people who would allow abortions in cases of rape or incest, there is at least a small, extremely vocal, politically well-situated group of them with a lot of influence who think all abortion, regardless of circumstances, are wrong and every pregnancy is God's gift to the mother.

I'm not saying all pro lifers agree with these 3 exceptions, however even when abortion was illegal in my country, these 3 cases were legal since they are not the norm and complications can arise. No one should tell a woman to raise a child conceived trough rape, to put her life at stake or to raise an handicapped kid (mentally or physically). Even my girlfriend, a militant pro lifer agrees perfectly that these 3 exceptions should be allowed. Of course there is always nutjobs with no sense of justice. One thing everybody should remember is that there is always a general rule AND exceptions, exceptions exist because they are different cases that require different treatment

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Know the free contraceptives are low quality, however you cannot demand high quality contraceptives without more taxes (and currently raising taxes is impossible, they are already to high), you pay what you come to get. If you do not have quality contraceptives, at least use the low quality ones, or use 'natural' methods to stop pregnancy, even someone very poor can afford a contraceptive, some kind of pill alike contraceptive such as the arm implant are free but few women know about it, it works 99% of the time.

I'm thinking high quality contraception would be cheaper than having abortions.

Yes but politicians sometimes don't know 1+1=2. It happens. It's just like choosing between increasing welfare or creating long term jobs. Politicians prefer spending on welfare instead of picking the tougher option of creating sustainable employment

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Blackout I think you are too gullible. Abortion is not skyrocketing in Portugal. Wikipedia says Portugal abortion rate is .009% compared to .033% in the UK, and 1.7% in the US.

Also, I think the Catholic Church has a huge impact on society and laws. You denying doesn't mean it isn't there.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Portugal

I didn't say abortion was skyrocketing in portugal, I just said some women are using it wrongly, abortion should be a last resort, not a contraceptive measure, at least they should pay out of their pockets to incentive them to not use abortion like this. I never compared portugal with the UK or any other country, but recent statistics showed one or two years after legalization abortions per women increased, considering we are in a crisis and few people have means to provide for a full family this is justified.

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Our former prime minister described himself as an agnostic, mostly to earn votes from both sides, but I'm pretty sure he was an atheist. Regardless we left us almost bankrupt and everybody hates it. Religion is as influential as in France or Italy, there is still a predominance of Christianity (about 70%, 80% in Italy) but it isn't as influential as in the US, we do not know our politicians' religious beliefs nor does anybody care, our constitution has the principle of secularism and the political rhetoric of using god as an argument is not valid. People are against it not exactly because of Christianity per se, but because a lot of old, middle aged people and so on still share some ultra conservative ideologies from fascism back in 1974, the common person will think as abortion = Murder and is incapable of thinking about it deeper, regardless of personal religion. I don't hear people saying they are against abortion and gay marriage because of god, but mainly because it's 'murder' (Abortion) and 'disgusting and unnatural' (gay marriage). At least I can say we have successfully created an atheist association some years ago.

Huh...I can't recall ever hearing the 'homosexuality is disgusting and unnatural' argument when it wasn't religious. What kind of justification do they give, if not religious?

They just think 'Well women and men procreate, therefore 2 men or 2 women together is anti-natural-law and should be illegal, it's disgusting'. I've met the typical middle aged or older man that says 'I'm against gay marriage unless the couple is lesbian, that's hot'

[Bibliofagus]

@blackout:
I tried quoting the pile above but I couldn't figure out how to correctly do it. First of all: thank you for your answer. I think I see were you are coming from. I have a problem however.

You've posted that only 50% or something of your people bothered to even turn up the day they could have made abortion illegal. Then you said that funding for contraception would be too expensive for your people ever to want to fund. I'm guessing that means you think they would turn up in bigger numbers and vote it away as well.

But abortions are not only more expensive, but also a - lot - more controversial than contraception. Yet you appear to believe that state funded contraception is unattainable in Portugal while state funded abortion was democratically voted into law.

How come?

[rexbeccarox]

I didn't say abortion was skyrocketing in portugal, I just said some women are using it wrongly, abortion should be a last resort, not a contraceptive measure, at least they should pay out of their pockets to incentive them to not use abortion like this. I never compared portugal with the UK or any other country, but recent statistics showed one or two years after legalization abortions per women increased, considering we are in a crisis and few people have means to provide for a full family this is justified.

(bold mine)

Who are you to decide how women should use abortion? It's none of your business. Even if it's a tax thing, people bring lung cancer on themselves. Should they pay out-of-pocket for their treatments? How about diabetics? People who broke a leg in a motorcycle accident?

Also, you're going to have to cite your sources if you want us to believe abortions increased. I simply don't believe you. I had to have an abortion once (I had a dead fetus that didn't want to leave naturally), and it was probably the most physically painful thing I've ever experienced. Do you really think women WANT to have abortions?

Your lines of reasoning have been debunked several times in this thread, among countless other abortion threads on this forum. I understand you're (sort of) pro choice, but you sound a lot like someone who isn't.

[Dystopia]

I didn't say abortion was skyrocketing in portugal, I just said some women are using it wrongly, abortion should be a last resort, not a contraceptive measure, at least they should pay out of their pockets to incentive them to not use abortion like this. I never compared portugal with the UK or any other country, but recent statistics showed one or two years after legalization abortions per women increased, considering we are in a crisis and few people have means to provide for a full family this is justified.

(bold mine)

Who are you to decide how women should use abortion? It's none of your business. Even if it's a tax thing, people bring lung cancer on themselves. Should they pay out-of-pocket for their treatments? How about diabetics? People who broke a leg in a motorcycle accident?

Also, you're going to have to cite your sources if you want us to believe abortions increased. I simply don't believe you. I had to have an abortion once (I had a dead fetus that didn't want to leave naturally), and it was probably the most physically painful thing I've ever experienced. Do you really think women WANT to have abortions?

Your lines of reasoning have been debunked several times in this thread, among countless other abortion threads on this forum. I understand you're (sort of) pro choice, but you sound a lot like someone who isn't.

Firstly I'm no one to decide on how women should use abortions neither did I intend to control such choice, I'm sorry if I didn't express myself correctly. However, I'm not sure whether abortion is cheaper or contraceptives. If contraceptives are cheaper then I have the right to demand my state funds education and contraceptives to prevent increase in abortion rate.

If you can read in portuguese, I can quote you several studies and statistics that show evidence, the main factor for abortion increasing being the financial/economical crisis, I have no need to check studies in english since in my country we use our language and our institute of statistics is a lot closer to our social reality compared to a foreign institute.

I believe you when you say aborting was the most painful thing you ever done and I don't think women enjoy doing abortions as an hobby.

To finish, I never really argued as either pro choice or pro life completely, I simply stated abortion is still ethically an inner debate and I have not yet decided myself on it, I have this right and if I were asked to vote for complete legalization I would probably abstain.

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@blackout:
I tried quoting the pile above but I couldn't figure out how to correctly do it. First of all: thank you for your answer. I think I see were you are coming from. I have a problem however.

You've posted that only 50% or something of your people bothered to even turn up the day they could have made abortion illegal. Then you said that funding for contraception would be too expensive for your people ever to want to fund. I'm guessing that means you think they would turn up in bigger numbers and vote it away as well.

But abortions are not only more expensive, but also a - lot - more controversial than contraception. Yet you appear to believe that state funded contraception is unattainable in Portugal while state funded abortion was democratically voted into law.

How come?

It was democratically voted because only pro choice people who want the right to abort bothered to show up, pro lifers, the majority of the population just thought 'YES will never win this referendum so I'm not going to show up'. And we voted to legalize abortion, not to make it illegal, it was illegal, but to make it legal according to the mother's will. (I didn't vote because I was a minor)

Contraceptives are not subjected to referendum therefore people had no saying in it, and most are too stupid to even realize contraceptives are cheaper than contraception, most people would vote yes if asked 'Should the government raise expenses on public hospitals?' and no when asked 'Should the state raise taxes?' (In this last case, it would be necessary to invest more in public hospitals) - See the stupidity?

[rexbeccarox]

Blackout, can I ask how you would vote if voting was compulsory like it is in some other countries?

I simply stated abortion is still ethically an inner debate

Right... for pregnant women.

[Dystopia]

Blackout, can I ask how you would vote if voting was compulsory like it is in some other countries?

I simply stated abortion is still ethically an inner debate

Right... for pregnant women.

What do you mean by this last expression?

I would vote yes, other people do not have to think like me, with legalization people who are against still don't need to abort.

[Minimalist]

Representative Trent Franks (AZ) wants to ban all abortions because “The incidence of rape resulting in pregnancy are very low.” he's a fucking asshole.

Fixed that.

My congressman.... one of the shittiest ever.

[rexbeccarox]

Blackout my point in response to you saying that abortion is ethically an inner debate was that the only people worrying about that "ethical inner debate" should be pregnant women. It's not anyone else's business.

[Dystopia]

Blackout my point in response to you saying that abortion is ethically an inner debate was that the only people worrying about that "ethical inner debate" should be pregnant women. It's not anyone else's business.

This is the kind of argument I despise. Why should only pregnant women be able to argue about abortion? Because they are pregnant? This makes no sense. I can decide whether I consider abortion ethically correct or not according to my personal principles without depending on other people's consent. By this logic, all categories of people would decide their rights, this is of course unbearable.

So by this logic non pregnant women cannot worry about the ethics of abortion? Makes perfect sense

So I cannot support the ethics of gay marriage because I'm straight? I cannot support the ethics of black people's rights because I'm white? People who vote laws are mostly white men and they gave women the right to have an abortion, so don't complain about it. Just because you can't experience something it doesn't mean you can't judge it, there are dozens of conducts I can judge without experiencing physically/first hand.

So I guess my previous answer on Yes makes me pro choice right? I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway.