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RE: About other gods-question for theists
July 4, 2014 at 4:05 pm
(July 4, 2014 at 2:51 pm)Lek Wrote: (In reply to Jenny.) Your evidence isn't contrary to the bible story. Honestly, I'm not qualified to debate every alleged inconsistency in the bible, so I leave it to other more learned apologists.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/classics/...egypt.html
I'm not theologian or expert in Roman history, though I do have an interest in Roman history and I read. But anyone with a mind, and I'm sure you have one, is equipped to evaluate the claims of apologists. You have access to the same tools they do: the Bible and history. They do no more than make arguments based upon those two things.
BTW Your link does not address the problem of the date of Jesus' birth considering the date of the census and the vitals of the various possible Herods. It addresses various other discrepancies. Including: why the slaughter of the innocents is not mentioned in contemporary records (a problem given the detail in which history records the atrocities of Herod the Great) and how Joseph got word of Herod's death (not really a problem in my opinion). It also cites some very strange dates:
Quote:But if his birth be placed late in 749, as we place it, His return from Egypt must have been in the early summer of 750.
Pardon my French but WTF? That would be about 700 years late and after the fall of Rome.
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RE: About other gods-question for theists
July 4, 2014 at 4:29 pm
(This post was last modified: July 4, 2014 at 4:33 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(July 4, 2014 at 12:52 pm)Lek Wrote: Yeah, but for most it takes about five seconds. Do you know of any that have more supporting evidence than christianity? If so, which one? Nope, I don't know of any. I do, however, know of a few religions that have -just as much- supporting evidence.
All of them.
edit: nope...nope..I was wrong, cargo cults have more supporting evidence. Those people did -in point of objective fact- receive a "visitation from their gods". Their gods were capable of, and did - in point of objective fact- exactly what the adherents claimed they did and could do. We have pics and audio.
Thinking of converting?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: About other gods-question for theists
July 4, 2014 at 4:37 pm
@ Lek
I'll tell you a little story. I was raised Christian (very Christian) but I never believed. I've given belief more than one serious try. The first time I was in my teens and our pastor suggested reading the Bible. I did. Cover to cover and with some hope. When I found problems, I began reading it in tandem with the NIV Commentary. In other words I read it with an apologist at my elbow. Didn't help.
The second time I read the Bible was in my 20s and I knew more about Roman and Egyption history by then, not to mention other god myths in the area. That was worse. It galvanized my atheism. The third time I read it in tandem with the contextual criticism and saw things I'd missed before. They showed not one but two melded gods in the Old Testament. By the last time, I knew more about astronomy, physics, and biology and that was the end.
So you see, I don't just think there is no god, I'm ready to show that The Bible itself is proof that the Christian one is wrong. Ditto the Mormon one, and the Jewish one. Can't do that to Allah, because I don't know the Koran well enough and I have no motivation to really read it.
No degree required, just reading and paying attention to what you read.
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RE: About other gods-question for theists
July 5, 2014 at 1:06 am
(July 3, 2014 at 10:46 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
If the Biblical God cannot lie, then the Biblical God is Jesus Christ.
The Biblical God cannot lie.
Therefore. The Biblical God is Jesus Christ.
To deny Jesus Christ is God is to deny the Biblical God.
(July 3, 2014 at 11:34 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Does not address why it's Joseph's line, rather than Mary's given the virgin birth. Also really lame. Really, really lame. The Bible does not use the female line anywhere else for a man's genealogy. Why start here with Joseph's? It gives explanation:
"Notice carefully that Joseph was a direct-line, blood descendant of David and, therefore, of David’s throne. Here is the precise purpose of Matthew’s genealogy: it demonstrated Jesus’ legal right to inherit the throne of David—a necessary prerequisite to authenticating His Messianic claim. However, an equally critical credential was His blood/physical descent from David—a point that could not be established through Joseph since “after His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:18, emp. added). This feature of Christ’s Messiahship was established through His mother Mary, who was also a blood descendant of David (Luke 1:30-32). Both the blood of David and the throne of David were necessary variables to qualify and authenticate Jesus as the Messiah."(https://www.apologeticspress.org/Alleged...rticle=932)
(July 3, 2014 at 11:34 pm)Jenny A Wrote: That's from Old Testament to Old Testament, not Old to New.
The prophecy is given in the old testament and the messiah is put to death in the new testament.
(July 3, 2014 at 11:34 pm)Jenny A Wrote: The prophesy doesn't tell us when to start counting.
"...from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks..." Start counting at the decree.
(July 3, 2014 at 11:34 pm)Jenny A Wrote: That would be the unwarranted assumption. We are arguing about whether the Bible is true, not assuming it.
No, this line of debate is a result of your question in post #22 and continued in #32:
Quote:Yes but why believe the Bible instead of the Koran?
When having to choose one of these two options, proof of the truth of either option isn't required. When having to choose one of these two options, the Bible is the logical conclusion.
(July 3, 2014 at 11:34 pm)Jenny A Wrote: (July 3, 2014 at 10:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: To claim that some of the words of the Bible are not true, that the Bible gets some things wrong about God, is to deny the Biblical God. Uh huh. And whether the there is a god, and if so if the Bible is evidence of him is the question not the answer. I agree that is a question, just not the question you initially asked.
(July 3, 2014 at 11:55 pm)GalacticBusDriver Wrote: (July 3, 2014 at 10:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The Biblical God cannot lie. Really?!?
"Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
According to your nasty little collection of evil fairy tales, buy-bull gawd lied. Neither Adam nor Eve died the day they ate the fruit. Spin as you wish, but a lie is a lie is a lie. If you believe that God is a liar then you have no reason to believe He told Adam and Eve that "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
(July 3, 2014 at 11:55 pm)GalacticBusDriver Wrote: Let me save you some trouble:
"Their death was spiritual."
Bullshit. Buy-bull gawd didn't say "you will be dead to me" or "it will be as though you died." He said they'd die, that day. Do you have an argument as to why the death had to be physical? The proceeding scriptures show they did die spiritually. Why does "thou shalt surely die" necessitate a physical death?
(July 3, 2014 at 11:55 pm)GalacticBusDriver Wrote: The buy-bull is a collection of oral traditions and, at very best, second-hand accounts (more likely fourth-, fifth-, eighth- or even twenty-seventh-hand), written down by man. Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing inerrant about it. In fact it is riddled with mistakes and contradictions.
Also, despite the fact that the first century CE is the best documented period in antiquity there is not one single contemporary account of jeebus. Not one Google is your friend. Although be careful he is also a spy.
(July 3, 2014 at 11:55 pm)GalacticBusDriver Wrote: On another, but related note, it always amuses me when christers put limits on their omniscient, omnipotent invisible sky-fairy daddy figure. You do not understand the definition of omnipotence, nor who makes the claim that God cannot lie.
(July 3, 2014 at 11:55 pm)GalacticBusDriver Wrote: In some ways humans are more powerful? Are you asserting that because humans can lie they are more powerful than the Biblical God?
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
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RE: About other gods-question for theists
July 5, 2014 at 1:20 am
If some stray fact is true, then what I believe is true. I assert, without evidence, that the stray fact is true. Therefore what I believe is true. So easy for you to slice through us like a hot knife through butter. What chance do we have?
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RE: About other gods-question for theists
July 5, 2014 at 1:25 am
(July 4, 2014 at 4:05 pm)Jenny A Wrote: But anyone with a mind, and I'm sure you have one, is equipped to evaluate the claims of apologists.
I have to disagree here. I don't think anyone with a mind is "equipped to evaluate the claims of apologists." I think that need a mind and critical thinking skills. Everyone has the first. Not everyone has the latter.
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RE: About other gods-question for theists
July 5, 2014 at 1:44 am
(This post was last modified: July 5, 2014 at 1:45 am by Jenny A.)
(July 5, 2014 at 1:06 am)orangebox21 Wrote: (July 3, 2014 at 11:34 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Does not address why it's Joseph's line, rather than Mary's given the virgin birth. Also really lame. Really, really lame. The Bible does not use the female line anywhere else for a man's genealogy. Why start here with Joseph's? It gives explanation:
". . . Here is the precise purpose of Matthew’s genealogy: it demonstrated Jesus’ legal right to inherit the throne of David—a necessary prerequisite to authenticating His Messianic claim. . . ."(https://www.apologeticspress.org/Alleged...rticle=932)
Again, while both bloodlines might be necessary to fulfill the prophecies, the Hebrews didn't track decent through the female line for any purpose. If one of the genealogies was Mary's one would expect that to be explicit. And even if it was explicit, it would be an enormous departure from Hebrew tradition.
Further, Joseph's bloodline wouldn't give Jesus a legal right to anything let alone a throne. Jesus was not Joseph's son (at least not according to the Bible). The Hebrews were patriarchies and did not recognize any kind of inheritance through the female line. They also didn't recognize hereditary rights of bastards, which Jesus was.
(July 5, 2014 at 1:06 am)orangebox21 Wrote: (July 3, 2014 at 11:34 pm)Jenny A Wrote: The prophesy doesn't tell us when to start counting.
"...from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks..." Start counting at the decree.
As I noted in the quote above, which decree? There are a number of contenders. decree from Cyrus in 539 BC. (see Ezra 1:1-4); the decree from Darius in 519 BC. (see Ezra 5:3-7) he decree from Artaxerxes to Ezra in 457 BC. (see Ezra 7:11-16); the decree from Artaxerxes to Nehemiah in 444 BC. (see Nehemiah 2:1-8. There's only 100 years to choose between them. You choose Nehemiah but but your Bible takes four guesses.
Further, as I noted before, the prophecy doesn't specify weeks or years or any particular unit of time.
You can make it fit. But prophecies are not of value unless they are clear. This is about as good as Nostradamus.
AND You still haven't figured out the Herod question. Lek appears to have given it up.
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RE: About other gods-question for theists
July 5, 2014 at 1:52 am
(July 5, 2014 at 1:06 am)orangebox21 Wrote: The Biblical God cannot lie.
The Bible is the word(s) of God.
If the Biblical God cannot lie, then the words of the Biblical God are true.
I don't think any atheist here accepts the premises stated. The god in the Bible may be a liar, and the Bible is not accepted as God's word(s).
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RE: About other gods-question for theists
July 5, 2014 at 1:57 am
You know, I'm not gonna argue the lying god again. Done it to death and honestly quite tired of refuting the same arguments over and over again.
This bit here though:
(July 5, 2014 at 1:06 am)orangebox21 Wrote: Are you asserting that because humans can lie they are more powerful than the Biblical God?
Yep. I am going to assert that. Man is greater than gawd because he can do what gawd cannot (at least according to you and a 2000-year-old book of myths). Man can lie and gawd cannot. Man can commit adultery and gawd cannot. I would say that man can murder, but gawd managed quite a bit of that himself.
Since arguing about man doing bad things, even if gawd cannot, is kinda morbid, I'll argue some good things. Man can feed starving children in Africa, gawd does not. Man can work to rebuild cities ravaged by flood, gawd does not (according to some, it sent the storms that caused the floods). Man can lift up his fellow man, gawd does not (despite much attribution in it's name). Man can give up his very existence for his fellow man, gawd can not. Which leads to the final point, man can and does exist, the gawd of the buy-bull does not.
Your gawd is but a figment of man's imagination. There is no evidence whatsoever (no that ancient book of atrocities doesn't fucking count) for gawd, it's son, miracles, the efficacy of prayer, life after death or any of the other myths you wish to put forth.
If you would care to present some evidence I am more than willing to listen. Please note that the buy-bull isn't evidence. Neither is personal testimony. Anecdotal evidence is also right out. Bring something tangible. Testable, verifiable evidence or don't bother. We've heard all the bullshit before (over and over) and bullshit doesn't impress.
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RE: About other gods-question for theists
July 5, 2014 at 5:46 am
(This post was last modified: July 5, 2014 at 5:50 am by dimonautical.)
I think there is one god of the bible. The other so called gods are nothing but powerful demons of the biblical. But im an athiest. I dont believe in gods or the whole biblical thing. But thats what i think it is because i used to be a christian.
And about letting them worship. Gawd gave them the bible so that they couldnt be lead on. Told the world about what he has done and will do, but never to happen.
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