Indoctrination & Mental Gymnastics

[watchamadoodle]

In many cases, losing faith in Christianity can cause serious problems like: depression, divorce, persistent fear of hell, etc.

There are lots of happy, successful, intelligent Christians.

It's like a tumor. If the tumor is benign, then maybe it's better not to perform surgery. That is my attitude with my Christian family and friends.

[robvalue]

You're welcome, hope it can be of some help.

Another possible strategy is to go for the root of the weed, it's a long post so I put it in spoilers:

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What makes you think any God exists?

If something or other did create this reality, what makes you think this book written 2000 years ago by superstious warmongers could possibly have any information about it that modern science cannot discover? The bible, apart from a bit of history which it still often gets wrong/makes up, is wholly unconfirmed by independent sources. You think no one else took any notice of God coming to earth, and jesus doing miracles?

Even if the bible is the word of God, who's to say God is telling the truth? Because God tells you that God tells the truth? The bible is only the word of God if you already pre-conclude God exists and that he wrote the bible. It's only true of you pre-conclude God doesn't lie. It's all circular logic. But God does lie, he says when Adam and Eve eat the apple from the tree of good and evil, they will die that day. But they don't. So how do we know he even made the universe and isn't stealing credit? Because he told you to believe him? If it's the perfect word of God, why does he get so many things clearly wrong? Why does he only have the scientific knowledge available at that precise point in history, along with its false preconceptions (flat earth etc).

The bible is the most evil book possible. What would God have to do before you said he had gone too far and you'd stand up to him? If he can do anything without accountability, what makes him different from a fascist dictator, might-makes-right? Why should you listen to a moral teacher who doesn't even follow his own rules?

Why does God only ever "help" in ways that can and do happen anyway? For example, he never has an amputee grow a limb back! (Check out this website, it highlights the hypocrisy and confirmation bias: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com )

Is it really reasonable to assume this whole gigantic cosmos was created just for the benefit of some tiny creatures on some obscure planet? Yet almost all of "our universe" is deadly to us? And the conditions for humans to live and the required evolution didn't even come around until billions of years after the universe had been here? And that very soon (in relation to the age of the universe) it will not be inhabitable? What kind of deranged plan is this!

What would a universe that was not designed for us, but which instead came about by natural means, look like? How can you know this one is designed if you have nothing to compare to? Could this one really be any less suited to us?

God is a fucking prick who gives AIDS to babies. Why doesn't he stop them being born with AIDS? What possible good can come from this? Is it fair to blame all this on an apple being eaten, in a story that is clearly fictional because science has proven we evolved and were not created as we are today?

If God just wants us to be happy, and wants us all to go to heaven, why not just put us in heaven in the first place? Why go through this ridiculous test first, which can only be passed by not using the critical thinking skills we have been given as our best tool?

If God is interested in our wellbeing, and if he is a good and understanding God, wouldn't he be happy if people just lived their life well and were nice and helpful? Why would an all powerful God also require and demand worship from tiny Peons in the universe? Why would he punish you for not kissing his ass, even though you lived life well and to the fullest? Why punish you for being born in a country where you were forced to adopt a different religion on threat of death? He expects you to dodge these death threats while somehow finding out about a religion in another continent, and believing it over your own indoctrination, while everyone around you will do all they can to keep that information out of your hands? Is this a fair "test"?

Godchild isn't normally as vile as that. I've had the odd half decent conversation with him, and I'm rather shocked at this outburst.

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[Lek]

Me: Great propaganda. They really try hard to make you feel like you're doing something wrong, pulling all those existential strings. To your perception, God sacrificed himself, to himself, to save' us, from himself. "Worship me so I can save you from what I'm going to do if you don't worship me." The first four commandments all relate to Yahweh's gigantic ego. Those four would have been better used for commandments like "thou shalt not rape" "thou shall not have slaves" "thou shall not harm children" and "thou shall treat everyone as equals" Imagine what things would be like if the writers had made him less egocentric. Selflessness is a value the abrahamic deity lacks.

Welcome to the forum Glitch. I'd like to take a stab at critiquing your comments. I might not have the time to address them all at one sitting. Yes. God's human son (who is also God) sacrificed himself to his father (who is also God) to pay the penalty for our sins. He did command us follow your four suggested commandments as shown in his "two greatest commandments":

Matthew 22:37-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Finally, it wasn't the writers' job to make God appear less egocentric, but to write as their inspiration led them to do. Obviously, you think God is egocentric, but that wasn't the opinion of the writers of the bible or of we who follow the bible.

Me: Lucifer? The guy that killed 10 people in the bible? Or do you mean Yahweh? The guy that killed 2,821,364 people in the bible? Oh, so you're telling me that the other 5 billion living people on the planet will all go to hell because they believed in the wrong God? All the Islamic, Buddhistic, and Hinduistic children? All of the kind people who care for others...and aren't Christian?

Lucifer doesn't have the power to kill anybody and he didn't kill anybody in the bible. After the sin of Adam, God ordained that we all would die - 100% of us. Which was worse for the Amalekites: dying quickly by the sword or dying from some slow agonizing death from disease as many of us will experience? The bible emphasizes that death was a result of our sin. You may believe different, but that's what bible-believing christians believe.

Me: So rejecting your specific deity equates to agonizing torture in the fiery pits of hell for all eternity? Sounds fair. Out of the world's 4,200 active religions and the hundreds of thousands of gods and goddesses, you expect them to pick Yahweh? It's a needle in the haystack and it's likely everyone else feels that their own deity is the right one. Your an atheist for every god created by humanity except for that one. If you were born in the Middle East you would be Islamic and claim that Allah is the one true God. If you were born in classical Greece you would believe in Zeus. If you were born in India you would believe in Vishnu. You had no choice in choosing a religion or God, your parents did that for you.

The bible says that Jesus died for the sins of us all. That doesn't mean just those are introduced to the bible and believe, but for all who honestly seek him:

Matthew 7:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Those who seek him will find him. They may not know that his name is Jesus or know the bible, but they are responding to the light that God has given them and will be saved. I'm not talking about every single person, but those who honestly seek him and respond to what he has revealed to them about himself. What you stated concerning that if you were born in certain countries, you would believe so and so, is not true. Christians are in every one of those countries you mentioned. Finally, my parents raised me as a christian. I'm all grown up now and I accept christianity for myself.

Me: You're performing some serious mental gymnastics to avoid rationality. Everyone believes that their God is the real God, everyone believes that their God affects the world and no one else's. Your God is as real as all the other Gods. It's subjective and determined by your culture. I know you're smarter than this, think outside of your perspective, consider why others believe in their gods and the look back at why you do.

You have no idea what she has experienced between God and herself and of why she's a christian.

Me: Where your born has a greater impact on what God you'll believe in than anything else. If you were born in a non-Christian region, you would not believe in the God you do now. If Yahweh is so omnipotent, why has there yet to be a child born with the foreknowledge of Yahweh's supposed existence? Why were you taught about this God at a young and impressionable age, rather than inheriting the information?

Like I already said before, there are millions of christians who were born in non-christian regions. As far as questioning why God didn't do it your way, I figure that if I'm God that's my business. But you're welcome to your opinion.

Me: That's an absurdly convoluted plan for a God. Look at how convinced you are of your own God's existence, now imagine how others may feel about their own. The God you worship is as real to you as their God is to them. You may find that they are as convinced as you are in their reasoning. Try to convert them, seriously attempt to convert a Hindu, Buddhist, Islamist, or Jew to Christianity. Grab every evangelical Christian you can find and attempt to convert the other 4.8 billion people in the world. It's been tried in the past, erupting nothing more than conflict.

There have been countless conversions to christianity in all parts of the world due to God working through missionaries. It happens every day.

Me: So, God is powerless without someone to speak for him?

No. He wants to use his people. That part of our mission on earth as christians.

Me: God's plan? That sounds like a feeble attempt to explain natural disasters killing millions. If the concept of God's plan is true, you have to accept that it's in God's plan for us to abort children. If God is both omnipresent and omnipotent, you must accept that God willfully allows the murder of innocent people and permits rape to take place. Epicurus says it best. "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence comets evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

It's not his desire that evil is done. His desire is that we love one another, but it's also his desire that we have the freedom to choose between good and evil. So yes he does allow evil things to happen.

[ronedee]

To provide some context, I'm discussing this with a cousin. I care for her, as much as she does for me. She was indoctrinated into Christianity like so many others and can't seem to think rationally when it comes to her religion. I know she's more intelligent than this, and this bronze age belief is only hindering her potential. I'd like to continue the discussion and make an impact, but I'm not sure what to say next.


She might be too far into it...thank you for reading. If you can perhaps critique my own comments or help me build an appropriate response for such...ridiculousness. It would be greatly appreciated.

Seriously.... leave her be. You are right she is very indoctrinated into the faith.

And really, whats your purpose? You obviously get along with her on some level. Keep it that way. Neither of you will ever agree on religion anyway.

If you love her, and she loves you.... you are both following the universal wish for humanity! Whether she thinks its God's love, or you think its an emotion... does it really matter?

I have family members that are aggies/atheists. I love them, they love me. We coexist as they say. We just keep our beliefs, or lack thereof to ourselves. We have our debates... but its never ending! At some point we need to find common ground.

We agree that real proof (for the other) will only come at the end. So, let it go. Let God.... I couldn't resist!

[Nope]

Ronadee, judging from the conversation that Glitch provided, he and his cousin are having very friendly debates. She sounds smart enough to be able to tell him when he has gone to far. Some people like debating. Also, she might very well be trying to convert him and that might be one of the reasons why she continues the conversation also.

[ronedee]

Ronadee, judging from the conversation that Glitch provided, he and his cousin are having very friendly debates. She sounds smart enough to be able to tell him when he has gone to far. Some people like debating. Also, she might very well be trying to convert him and that might be one of the reasons why she continues the conversation also.

I can dig that! Just my opinion and experiences! My advice is free, and not important anyway!

[vorlon13]

I've been rather perplexed with some statements from Latter Day Saint apologists. In essence, they site the revisions to the revelations of Joseph Smith, (and in many cases, multiple revisions) as PROOF of their accuracy, and their being voiced by God.

It puzzles me, what kind of God are they implying inspired these revelations that NOT A SINGLE ONE was delivered correctly in the first place, and MANY were not correct till the THIRD revision ??

Other religions might bristle at the implied (choose one) idiocy/random motivations/vapid vacuousness of such a god, but the Mormons feel it clinches their belief.

Also, many of these revelations were announced upon their release of their FIRST VERSION by their revelator, Joseph Smith, as being perfectly, accurately and completely received.

'Mental gymnastics' does not come even close to describing what is going on in the heads of these apologists.

[Huggy Bear]

Me: Lucifer? The guy that killed 10 people in the bible? Or do you mean Yahweh? The guy that killed 2,821,364 people in the bible?

Interesting.

I'm just going to address a couple of points, because the majority of your post was just utter nonsense.

But first i must ask (in relation to the above quote), what's your opinion of Charles Manson?

Me: Great propaganda. They really try hard to make you feel like you're doing something wrong, pulling all those existential strings. To your perception, God sacrificed himself, to himself, to save' us, from himself. "Worship me so I can save you from what I'm going to do if you don't worship me."

God is obligated to his Word.
If the Word states "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." then that is what must happen, total annihilation. If you've ever told a lie for example (which everyone has), then you are guilty under the law.

To put it simply, the court doesn't care who pays the fine as long as the fine gets paid, except in your case, you can't afford to pay the fine, so Jesus paid it for you. He placed all sins, past, present and future upon himself, and bore the brunt of God's wrath in your stead, which is why you're able to sit behind your keyboard, insult him and live to pat yourself on the back.

Yet you imply Satan is the "good guy" and God is "evil", very telling.

Isaiah 5:20
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

[The Grand Nudger]

I love it, my daughters due punishment for fibbing about whether or not she ate the jelly toast is total annihilation. LOL, please, continue.

[Huggy Bear]

Depends on how old your daughter is. Children aren't held accountable for their actions.