If faith works how every religion says it works......

[RAD]

14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Some revival leaders have led far more people to Jesus than Jesus did, millions more, which of course is the primary purpose of God. Miracles are secondary and really only a sign to help others believe, although Jesus did say some won't believe "even though one rise form the dead", like yourself probably. You can claim he meant only miracles, but then you have no proof of that.

14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (14:13-14)

1.He's speaking to the disciples, not somebody who is testing him like the Pharisees did or the devil did. Ironic, isn't it? You do the same things religious people did in his day. As Jesus said, "No sign will be given to them" who are merely testing him. (Although a sincere, truly open-minded test is OK)

2. We hear elsewhere it has to be "according to his will" although miracles can be is will, and many Christians have seen bonifide miracles. (I lost the tape you will doubtless demand to see, sorry)

14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

My personal experience is that I got as much or more than I asked for, although not overnight.

Nice shot though guy

Can I ask, if you could experience those "rivers of living water flowing from [your] innermost being," would you care about the rest? I suddenly didn't.

---

If Christianity is true, every blind person should promptly have perfect vision!

And I haven't the slightest doubt we all will see perfectly one day, in which case your demand for instant universal phyical healing will look stupid. Right?

But let me ask quite seriously, if Jesus came back and instantly healed 62% of all wounded vets, and healed the diseases of 81% of all the terminally ill patients in all the hospitals of the world over a period of one month, would you serve him?

(I would think very carefully before answering)

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

And I haven't the slightest doubt we all will see perfectly one day, in which case your demand for instant universal phyical healing will look stupid. Right?

That wasn't really the point that was being made. The bible states that it is possible for miracles to happen, how they can happen, and what will happen when asked for. Certainly, you can pray for universally perfect human (or better) eyesight can happen to every human being on the planet someday, but it won't be because anyone prayed for it, it'll be because people worked their lives in the medical (or other applicable scientific) fields their whole lives and worked until such a reality can occur. It won't be a mysical act of god - it'll be done by human hands and human minds.

[Minimalist]

Some revival leaders have led far more people to Jesus than Jesus did,

Sheep always get led to the fleecing...which is all these fucking phony "preachers" do.

[RAD]

And I haven't the slightest doubt we all will see perfectly one day, in which case your demand for instant universal phyical healing will look stupid. Right?

That wasn't really the point that was being made. The bible states that it is possible for miracles to happen, how they can happen, and what will happen when asked for. Certainly, you can pray for universally perfect human (or better) eyesight can happen to every human being on the planet someday, but it won't be because anyone prayed for it, it'll be because people worked their lives in the medical (or other applicable scientific) fields their whole lives and worked until such a reality can occur. It won't be a mysical act of god - it'll be done by human hands and human minds.

Yes, if Armageddon doesn't come first as a study of history or the Bible would indicate to be our default end.

I get his point. I'm just pointing out (in a roundabout way) how silly it is to test God much like the Pharisees and the devil did with Jesus. Whether he works some sort of amazing miracle or not here won't matter to anyone when we all receive spiritual sight.

Ask almost any atheist if s/he will belive in and follow Jesus if he came back and gave sight to 88% of blind people. They won't, because that's not the real problem they have. They would just demand he do something more, which is of course a good reason for him NOT to do more.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

Yes, if Armageddon doesn't come first as a study of history or the Bible would indicate to be our default end.

Personally, I'm reasonably certain that if there'll be an apocalypse, we'll damn well do it to ourselves. If the human race has to end, I'd either pick super-intelligent machines or gamma ray burst.

I get his point. I'm just pointing out (in a roundabout way) how silly it is to test God much like the Pharisees and the devil did with Jesus. Whether he works some sort of amazing miracle or not here won't matter to anyone when we all receive spiritual sight.

I don't think asking the creator to make an appearance once every few millenia is too much to ask. Making a portrait of Jesus, Mary, and Elvis in tortillas and grilled cheese sammiches just isn't cutting it.
Right now, I'm reasonably certain that no "creator" has ever made an appearance.

Ask almost any atheist if s/he will belive in and follow Jesus if he came back and gave sight to 88% of blind people. They won't, because that's not the real problem they have. They would just demand he do something more, which is of course a good reason for him NOT to do more.

That's not true and you know it. I think the one best thing that could ever happen to a particular church is for Jesus (preferably God or the whole trinity) to make an appearance, do a miracle that's been proof positive of being true (and tested as such) as had happened and doing a wink and nudge to the actual 'true' religion or even one that hasn't existed for millenia or even one that has never existed. You'll never see a greater flock of atheists to faith than if and when that event happens because the reason atheists are atheists is because things like that don't happen and have never happened in the past.

[Minimalist]

Why won't god heal amputees?

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

Why won't god heal amputees?

Because the vote requires that you raise both your hands while standing up.

[Edwardo Piet]

But what about peg-legs + non-amputated arms?

Oh, I get it... you have to "stand on your own two feet".

[Thor]

Some revival leaders have led far more people to Jesus than Jesus did, millions more,

You mean "revival leaders" like Peter Popoff and Jimmy Swaggart?

Miracles are secondary and really only a sign to help others believe,

I've never seen a "miracle". And why is it that this deity has never performed a miracle where someone's missing limb was replaced?

although Jesus did say some won't believe "even though one rise form the dead", like yourself probably.

Not true at all! Go get a dead body and pray to Jesus for that body to come back to life. If life is restored to that body, I'll definitely believe!

You can claim he meant only miracles, but then you have no proof of that.

And you have no proof that "Jesus" ever truly existed.

14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (14:13-14)

1.He's speaking to the disciples, not somebody who is testing him like the Pharisees did or the devil did. Ironic, isn't it? You do the same things religious people did in his day.

Let's look again at what is written: "He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also"

Says nothing about this comment being restricted to the disciples! Next statement:

"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do"

The "ye" in this statement refers back to the "he" in the previous statement. What "Jesus" is saying is that if you believe in him, you will do the same works as "Jesus". He then says that he will do whatever you ask in his name.

Now, the next statement: " If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

Seems pretty clear to me. Believe in Jesus, ask for anything in his name, and he will do it. Of course, we all know this is not true. Which is why believers have to come up with something to explain WHY this is not true. "Oh, well.... he's talking to the disciples! He doesn't mean us!"

Bullshit.

As Jesus said, "No sign will be given to them" who are merely testing him. (Although a sincere, truly open-minded test is OK)

And this is bullshit! If "Jesus" truly answered prayers we would see the results! Even if people weren't testing him, we would notice that a significantly higher percentage of (for example) cancer patients recovered when they prayed to Jesus as compared to people who didn't pray to Jesus. Nice try, though.

2. We hear elsewhere it has to be "according to his will" although miracles can be is will, and many Christians have seen bonifide miracles. (I lost the tape you will doubtless demand to see, sorry)

Please list ONE verified "miracle". I'm not asking for something that is unexplained, either. Being cured of a disease doesn't count (that is simply unexplained). I'm talking about something that defies natural laws. I'll also accept an instance where missing or deformed body parts regenerated after prayer.

14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

My personal experience is that I got as much or more than I asked for, although not overnight.

Nice try at evasion. Like I said, pray sincerely for all the blind people in the world to be given 20/20 vision by tomorrow at noon Eastern Time. "Jesus" said that if you believe in him, he will do whatever you ask if done in his name. I'll even write the prayer for you.

"Oh, Lord Jesus. We ask humbly in your name that all the blind people on Earth, and those with impaired eyesight, be given 20/20 vision by noon Eastern time on August 13, 2010. We ask for your grace in this humble request. Amen."

That oughta do it! If what you believe is true, I would expect that there will be millions of people rejoicing in the next 24 hours.

Can I ask, if you could experience those "rivers of living water flowing from [your] innermost being," would you care about the rest? I suddenly didn't.

I don't even know what you're talking about.

If Christianity is true, every blind person should promptly have perfect vision!

And I haven't the slightest doubt we all will see perfectly one day, in which case your demand for instant universal phyical healing will look stupid. Right?

Who's talking about everyone seeing perfectly "some day"? How does that help blind people today? Typical religious nonsense. "One day" blah, blah, blah.

But let me ask quite seriously, if Jesus came back and instantly healed 62% of all wounded vets, and healed the diseases of 81% of all the terminally ill patients in all the hospitals of the world over a period of one month, would you serve him?

If some guy claimed to be Jesus and walked through hospitals healing people with a touch of his hand, and this was absolutely verified, then, yes, I would believe in Jesus. Would I serve him? What would that entail? Because I already live a moral life, give to charity, help people when I can and serve my community.

[RAD]

You mean "revival leaders" like Peter Popoff and Jimmy Swaggart?

No, more like Whitefield, Wesley, Seymour, etc

I've never seen a "miracle".

And?

And why is it that this deity has never performed a miracle where someone's missing limb was replaced?

Red herring

Not true at all! Go get a dead body and pray to Jesus for that body to come back to life. If life is restored to that body, I'll definitely believe!

The demons believe and tremble. I asked if you would serve him.

And you have no proof that "Jesus" ever truly existed.

Well then the Gospel writers were lying, which it is up to you to prove, per legal slander/libel rules

Let's look again at what is written: "He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also" Says nothing about this comment being restricted to the disciples!

Heh. It's the disciples but it doesn't matter because you don't believe anyway. And of course leading far more people to Jesus than he did himself answers the questions. It doesn't say "miracles." That is merely a convenient assumption. Besides as I said, miracles are not the primary goal of the Gospel, at all.

And this is bullshit! If "Jesus" truly answered prayers we would see the results! Even if people weren't testing him, we would notice that a significantly higher percentage of (for example) cancer patients recovered when they prayed to Jesus as compared to people who didn't pray to Jesus. Nice try, though.

Over 20 years, there was a 40% reduction in the prison population of England and Wales after the revival that began in Wales around 1905. This is the only data collected like that, by an independent entity. But we have annecdotal testimony coming out the wazoo, like miners taxing themselves ot build libraries. (Another greater work) We have you rposter boy Franklim marveling at "the change soon made in our citizens" of Philadelphia. (Another greater work)

"Oh, Lord Jesus. We ask humbly in your name that all the blind people on Earth, and those with impaired eyesight, be given 20/20 vision by noon Eastern time on August 13, 2010. We ask for your grace in this humble request. Amen."

That oughta do it! If what you believe is true, I would expect that there will be millions of people rejoicing in the next 24 hours.

1. Works isn't necessarily miracles.

2. I would be merely testing God.

Do you grasp at all why Jesus didn't do what the devil said he should when he was on the mountain????

If some guy claimed to be Jesus and walked through hospitals healing people with a touch of his hand, and this was absolutely verified, then, yes, I would believe in Jesus. Would I serve him? What would that entail? Because I already live a moral life, give to charity, help people when I can and serve my community.

I could pretty well guess your answer. I've been doing this awhile, off and on, to see how well I can still answer any question/argument, and to balance a horribly biased, revisionist and illogical approach to fact finding

I don't mean this as a cut at all, but you're too self-righteous to be a follower, at the moment. Isn't that fair to say, not just of you but any unbeliever? Read the Sermon on the Mount and tell us how much imputed righteousness you would need to live up to it. Personally I need a huge amount.