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RE: Self-racism?
February 9, 2015 at 1:00 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2015 at 1:01 pm by Homeless Nutter.)
(February 9, 2015 at 12:56 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Germany seems to have harsher penalties for everything connected to the Holocaust and Nazism, included, from what I've heard from Germans, school programs that teach students why racism is wrong and why equality is important.
In Germany, Austria and around 8 other European countries, publicly denying Holocaust is a criminal offense. I guess freedom of speech really does have limits. No wonder Muslims are marching in the streets demanding further limits...
Hasty EDIT: I'm not a Hollocaust denier - those people are nut-cases. But I do like my freedom of speech, even if it often does me no good.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Self-racism?
February 9, 2015 at 1:01 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2015 at 1:04 pm by Losty.)
(February 9, 2015 at 12:49 pm)Norman Humann Wrote: Can you explain the difference you mean between being proud to be German and being proud of Germany?
Absolutely, being proud to be German doesn't make sense to me unless you're an immigrant who had to work for your citizenship. Being proud to be German when you were born in Germany makes as much sense as being proud to have green eyes. Which, to me, makes no sense at all. You have no choice of where you're born, it's just luck, so it makes no sense to be proud of it. (To me)
The same goes for being proud to be a specific, race or gender.
Where being proud of Germany would be like...I am proud of my country for how far it's come in the last 70 years, I am proud of my country for valuing education so much that it offers free uni to everyone even immigrants. I am proud of my country for being environmentally friendly by using public transportation and keeping gas prices high. Being proud of Germany, to me, is being comfortable saying that despite it's ugly past Germany is now a great nation.
(August 21, 2017 at 11:31 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: "I'm not a troll"
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RE: Self-racism?
February 9, 2015 at 1:09 pm
I agree with you, being proud of something you have no control over doesn't make sense to me either.
But saying "Germany is a great nation" with no ill intentions whatsoever will still make some people cringe. It's like a beaten dog. If you raise your hand, it will yelp, even if you have food in it. There's nothing wrong with being proud of Germany. There's many great thing about it, no doubt. I'm just saying the memories are still too fresh. It's not the average German's fault, by no means, it's just how things are. "Proud of Germany" just sounds too familiar. I don't think you can get it from an outsider's perspective, not if you haven't been to Auschwitz or if you don't have some dinnerware with swastikas on it in the basement.
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RE: Self-racism?
February 9, 2015 at 1:18 pm
(February 9, 2015 at 1:09 pm)Norman Humann Wrote: I agree with you, being proud of something you have no control over doesn't make sense to me either.
But saying "Germany is a great nation" with no ill intentions whatsoever will still make some people cringe. It's like a beaten dog. If you raise your hand, it will yelp, even if you have food in it. There's nothing wrong with being proud of Germany. There's many great thing about it, no doubt. I'm just saying the memories are still too fresh. It's not the average German's fault, by no means, it's just how things are. "Proud of Germany" just sounds too familiar. I don't think you can get it from an outsider's perspective, not if you haven't been to Auschwitz or if you don't have some dinnerware with swastikas on it in the basement.
I love your analogy. You know why? Because I have adopted dogs that were abused. You know how you get them to stop flinching? You raise your hand to them slowly with treats and smiles and smooth talking. They'll flinch and whine, at first, but given time, they will come to realize that you mean them no harm. The flinching will fade and you can form a loving bond with them.
I also wonder if it's less cringeworthy coming from a non- German? I think Germany is awesome. I wish they'd catch up with the rest of the world when it comes to women's roles, but other than that, I can't wait to raise my children in a country where I feel safe to let them walk to school and know none of their friends' parents will have guns lying around the house.
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RE: Self-racism?
February 9, 2015 at 1:22 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2015 at 1:23 pm by Norman Humann.)
(February 9, 2015 at 1:18 pm)Losty Wrote: I love your analogy. You know why? Because I have adopted dogs that were abused. You know how you get them to stop flinching? You raise your hand to them slowly with treats and smiles and smooth talking. They'll flinch and whine, at first, but given time, they will come to realize that you mean them no harm. The flinching will fade and you can form a loving bond with them.
Sure, just not in this generation. Like we've said, people who have been there and done it are still alive. What you called an ugly past is not entirely in the past yet. Given time, things will change for the better, I'm sure of it, but not now. And not in this fucking country, but that's beside the point.
(February 9, 2015 at 1:18 pm)Losty Wrote: I also wonder if it's less cringeworthy coming from a non- German? I think Germany is awesome. I wish they'd catch up with the rest of the world when it comes to women's roles, but other than that, I can't wait to raise my children in a country where I feel safe to let them walk to school and know none of their friends' parents will have guns lying around the house.
It is less cringe-worthy, that's the whole point, especially from a non-European. That's what we've been talking about, Germans not wanting to sing the national anthem or wave flags.
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RE: Self-racism?
February 9, 2015 at 1:26 pm
(February 9, 2015 at 12:00 pm)Alex K Wrote: (February 9, 2015 at 11:58 am)Losty Wrote: I don't really care for flag waving or blind patriotism, but I still don't understand why any German should feel uncomfortable expressing a love for their nation over something that happened 70 years ago. Most Germans had no part in the Holocaust.
But our very own grandparents. That's not something to erase from your mind easily. You can't really say that most back then had no part in it - my grandparents weren't part of the SS or even closely affiliated wit the party (although one of my great-granddads was), but they all saw these people vanish. My home county was the first "Judenfreie Gau" in Germany, the first region from which all Jews had been deported. This is the synagogue in my home town burning to the ground in '38, when my grandparents were 38,36,26 and 16 respectively.
The only thing I can be proud of today is that we don't hide these things. But that has precious little to do with patriotism.
Your vigilance is praiseworthy, Alex. An unblinking appraisal of history may not prevent its repetition, but it will certainly help.
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RE: Self-racism?
February 9, 2015 at 1:30 pm
(February 9, 2015 at 12:45 pm)Losty Wrote: (February 9, 2015 at 12:41 pm)Norman Humann Wrote: It's less about guilt and more about associations. I agree there's nothing wrong with it and I don't think anyone sees it as wrong, but it just reminds people of the hell they went through. Just like there's nothing wrong with being proud of being white, but walking around black neighborhoods with a "white power" t-shirt will be frowned upon.
I personally think being proud of being white is wrong. I wouldn't suggest being proud to be German either, but rather being proud of Germany. I don't see why waving the national flag or singing your national anthem, or even wearing a shirt that says 'I love Germany' would be offensive to anyone. Maybe I'm just clueless, I am American afterall. Some things I just don't get.
I also think it is not about guilt. Noone in my generation feels.much guilt for these things. I also don't think being proud of being white is a sensible thing, since it's nothing I had the slightest part in determining, nor does it make much difference (except that I get sunburns more quickly)
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Self-racism?
February 9, 2015 at 1:30 pm
As for national pride, I like what Rush had to say about it in their song "Territories":
Quote:They shoot without shame
In the name of a piece of dirt
For a change of accent
Or the color of your shirt
Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colorful rag is unfurled
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RE: Self-racism?
February 9, 2015 at 1:35 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2015 at 1:38 pm by Alex K.)
Losty Wrote:. I wish they'd catch up with the rest of the world when it comes to women's roles,
Yeah, no shit. Rest of the world is overgeneralizing it more than a bit, but when it comes to family friendlyness we can still learn a lot from our neighbors, women in leadership positions, too. Well if I ever have any daughters I hope to teach them how to kick ass  , but of course, that shouldn't be necessary.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Self-racism?
February 9, 2015 at 1:41 pm
(February 9, 2015 at 1:35 pm)Alex K Wrote: Losty Wrote:. I wish they'd catch up with the rest of the world when it comes to women's roles,
Yeah, no shit. Rest of the world is overgeneralizing it more than a bit
I don't think you'd want to catch up with Saudi Arabia on that 
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