I'm very sorry to hear that, how dare she I know just what you mean, the way my parents treated me and talked to me still makes me feel stupid and incapable to this day. I have to fight off that instant assessment of myself, and that I won't be able to do whatever it is I'm trying to do.

(February 9, 2015 at 7:40 am)Nope Wrote:

(February 8, 2015 at 10:49 pm)IATIA Wrote: My parents raised six children with that saying and we all turned out just fine. We are not racist nor do we give a shit what deragotory terms or names are thrown around. We learned to consider the source and move on.

My mother raised me by calling me stupid, ugly and a slut among other things. No matter how hard I try, I can't remove that mental tape player that tells me that I am those things. Logically I know they are wrong but I still have a tendency to blame myself when things go wrong. Words hurt. I can't imagine what it does to a child's self image to hear repeatedly that the race that they are born into is somehow of less worth than another race

Jeez, I'm sorry. She must have had some issues with her self esteem, or what can possible make someone punish a child like that.

Child rearing 101, first lesson: be supportive. The end. Seems to be a hard one.

My father used to tell me I was a "freak". It was pretty rich, coming from him, but it still hurt. Then I learned to appreciate his low expectations, quit university, left my homeland, moved to London and have been high for the past 15 years or so... Not sure what's the moral of this story, but there you go...

Thank you guys for offering empathy for my screwed up childhood. That means a lot to me. I am sorry for those of you who also had verbally or emotionally abusive parents. I don't think that parents always understand the damage their words do. Alek K, my mom grew up in extreme poverty with an abusive but charming father and a mother who was not physically affectionate. I loved my Nan but her way to express love was to do things for people instead of saying, I love you or even giving an unasked for hug. So, I understand why my mother acted liked she did. It was still a crappy childhood and I don't excuse her actions but I feel pity for her also. (Sorry for the thread derail)

(February 9, 2015 at 3:06 am)Alex K Wrote: It depends on how you count, though. What would you consider the beginning of the german nation?

The creation of the national anthem, or more generally the Deutschlandlied, by von Fallersleben, in the 1840s, falls into an epoch where Europe (apart from england and france or so) was, as you probably know better than me, divided into an uncountable number of duchies and kingdoms and what have you, with some Napoleon thrown in. The "national" movement to unify Germany as a single nation state was the progressive party back then - as opposed to today where nationalism is considered conservative regressive.

That's an interesting point, but considering national anthems, the Polish one was created in 1927 and the country existed before as a sometimes sovereign nation.

Quote:The creation of the unified German state out of the (Nord)deutsche Bund, the kingdom of Bavaria etc dates to 1871. The United States hence have a 100 years more of unified "national" history behind them if you count like that. Although... of course the US of the 1780s looked much different from today, which still shows in the separatist tendencies of some southern states *cough texas cough*, doesn't it If you count starting from the civil war, it's the same age, interestingly.

If you count the German "holy roman empire" as the beginning (which was neither holy, nor roman, nor an empire, as Voltaire remarked), we go waaaaaay back. But then we'd have to sing a hymn to emperor Otto or something The consensus opinion seems to be that the people living in and running the holy roman empire didn't really feel a strong national unity and identified more with their local tribe, the rulers being more interested in their particular small patches on the map, and relations between noble families, than a unified german nation.

You're right, I forgot about the whole mess with most of the European nations. I just kind of have this idea in the back of my head from learning Polish history. Poland was one country from 966 and it never was as divided as most other countries.

(February 9, 2015 at 11:33 am)Norman Humann Wrote: You're right, I forgot about the whole mess with most of the European nations. I just kind of have this idea in the back of my head from learning Polish history. Poland was one country from 966 and it never was as divided as most other countries.

I suppose this core-Poland you mean did not include eastern Prussia? I mean polish history has some mess, too, getting divided sometimes, no? (and I'm not even talking about WWII)

(February 9, 2015 at 11:38 am)Alex K Wrote:

(February 9, 2015 at 11:33 am)Norman Humann Wrote: You're right, I forgot about the whole mess with most of the European nations. I just kind of have this idea in the back of my head from learning Polish history. Poland was one country from 966 and it never was as divided as most other countries.

I suppose this core-Poland you mean did not include eastern Prussia? I mean polish history has some mess, too, getting divided sometimes, no? (and I'm not even talking about WWII)

No, it didn't originally include it. It was much smaller than the current territory.

It does have a lot of mess on the Eastern borders, the Baltic shore and Silesia (which I live in), but it's more of a territorial dispute mess. I meant that it didn't have the problem with being divided into many duchies, except for a short period of time and even then it still fromally existed as a unified nation.

But maybe that's beside the point of the question - I think the fact that Germany is one of the least flag-waving anthem-singing countries around is first and foremost a consequence of the Nazi era, losing the wars, the foundation of the Federal Republic under American leadership, and the confrontation of the Holocaust by the following generation (exemplified by the '68 student revolts, which had a strong international communist bent - the generation of my teachers). It's not like there was a lack of patriotism before '45. Due to past events, it is simply seen more clearly as the suspicious, possibly dangerous sentiment it actually is. This slowly changes now, I think, but only to a limited extent.

I don't really care for flag waving or blind patriotism, but I still don't understand why any German should feel uncomfortable expressing a love for their nation over something that happened 70 years ago. Most Germans had no part in the Holocaust.

(February 9, 2015 at 11:58 am)Losty Wrote: I don't really care for flag waving or blind patriotism, but I still don't understand why any German should feel uncomfortable expressing a love for their nation over something that happened 70 years ago. Most Germans had no part in the Holocaust.

But our very own grandparents. That's not something to erase from your mind easily. You can't really say that most back then had no part in it - my grandparents weren't part of the SS or even closely affiliated wit the party (although one of my great-granddads was), but they all saw these people vanish. My home county was the first "Judenfreie Gau" in Germany, the first region from which all Jews had been deported. This is the synagogue in my home town burning to the ground in '38, when my grandparents were 38,36,26 and 16 respectively.


The only thing I can be proud of today is that we don't hide these things. But that has precious little to do with patriotism.