Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: December 11, 2024, 5:08 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Religiosity, Spirituality and the Moral
#21
RE: Religiosity, Spirituality and the Moral
(February 16, 2015 at 1:15 pm)Gavin Duffy Wrote: Ah thanks for the notice JesusHChrist, very green to the whole online forum policy. Was trying to find like minded fellows interested in my area of research.

Spirituality (practically a neologism in modern times), I believe, while certainly still tainted with ambiguity in many circles has less to do with any supernaturally deduced doctrine of belief, but more to do with an awareness of everyday internal subjectivity. It is a lift off from Eastern philosophy (Hara Krishna, Tibetan Budhism etc.) and promotes things like meditation (a practice i fervently endorse) the sanctity of life and 'the present'.

As for morality, I am reluctant to posit my position for ethical reasons, however my original thesis proposal suggests that while it is inherently difficult to carve out universal truths within the moral topography, organised monotheism does not retain a monopoly as is so frequently thought among the religious (particularly related to social in-group tendencies).

My sense of spirituality, such as it is, doesn't inform my morality at all. What I call "spirituality" is simply a one-word condensation of my sense of the ineffable, and my feeling of smallness, when confronted with brute facts of nature.

I don't know what you mean by "moral topography", anyway. I know what I think is right or wrong, but it is not colored by where I sense my place in the world, which is currently Central Texas. The moral topography here is limestone hills split by canyons and waterways.

Reply
#22
RE: Religiosity, Spirituality and the Moral
(February 17, 2015 at 7:31 pm)ether-ore Wrote: If I may, I'd like to recommend a great book on this subject. It is entitled "What ever Happened to Good and Evil?" by Russ-Shafer Landau, who is a professor of Philosophy .

I concur with his thesis that the only viable moral code must be objective. There seems to be a problem however, on defining what constitutes "objective". I say that because in discussions I've had with others, they seem to want to identify their subjective moral codes as objective. That one of these (as an example) was the only source of the moral code is what made it subjective and I guess he couldn't see that. It is my opinion that an objective morality is not possible without God.

It is my further belief that all other moral codes in the world are necessarily subjective or relative and consequently are the source of conflict with others who disagree.

Russ-Shafer Landau explains that among moral skeptics are several categories. Moral nihilists claim that there are no moral laws. Moral subjectivists claim that there are moral laws, but that there is no verifiable basis for it (other than themselves and an immediate circle of associates). Moral relativists claim that moral codes are determined by the culture (or nation).

If God is deciding what the moral code is, then it's not objective, it's subjective to God. It's what God finds moral and immoral. If it were objective, it would not be created by God, but it would apply to God, and god could not decide it. You're appointing a random arbiter, and then claiming he "doesn't count" as being subjective when he makes decisions.

Also, if you have a prescribed moral code which you follow blindly, you are being amoral- without morals. You're making no consideration as to whether your actions actually benefit or harm those around you. You are merely a robot passing down judgements from someone else. If you do decide whether or not to apply any given part of the moral code in any situation, then you are filtering that code using your own morality. And of course, this is exactly what people do even when they claim to follow the "morality of the bible". Anyone who actually lives by what the bible told you to do would very quickly be dead or in jail.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
Reply
#23
RE: Religiosity, Spirituality and the Moral
(February 18, 2015 at 1:35 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: [quote='Gavin Duffy' pid='876834' dateline='1424106934']

My sense of spirituality, such as it is, doesn't inform my morality at all. What I call "spirituality" is simply a one-word condensation of my sense of the ineffable, and my feeling of smallness, when confronted with brute facts of nature.

I can relate, I would find it almost inconceivable not to find a sense of awe from our understanding of cosmology.

Quote:I don't know what you mean by "moral topography", anyway. I know what I think is right or wrong, but it is not colored by where I sense my place in the world, which is currently Central Texas. The moral topography here is limestone hills split by canyons and waterways.

That was perhaps a failed attempt at metaphor lol. Good answer though! What i simply meant was that morality can be viewed as a series of diverse distributed troughs and peaks, temporal in nature, subject to erosion and sedimentation. That the current climate limits us to relativist perspectives. Perhaps that was a more abstract metaphor than i thought lol.
Reply
#24
RE: Religiosity, Spirituality and the Moral
(February 18, 2015 at 12:31 am)wiploc Wrote:
(February 17, 2015 at 7:31 pm)ether-ore Wrote: It is my opinion that an objective morality is not possible without God.

Is it possible with god? Because if your claim is that it is possible with god but not possible without god, I'd like an explanation.

That's a claim that I've never seen effectively defended. It's come to the point that I don't believe it can be defended. So, if you have justification for your belief that objective morality is not possible without god (but is possible with god), then then I'd really like to know what that justification is.

I doubt that I would be able to offer you an acceptable explanation, or rather one that would be acceptable to you. However, these are my thoughts on the matter: Any moral code on the face of this earth would necessarily be subjective or relative according to the definitions I gave earlier. Consequently, and by process of elimination, an objective moral code would have to be eternal as opposed to temporal. An eternal moral law would of necessity have to have an administrator... God.
Reply
#25
RE: Religiosity, Spirituality and the Moral
Did you want to address my rebuttal above? Smile
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
Reply
#26
RE: Religiosity, Spirituality and the Moral
(February 18, 2015 at 4:06 pm)robvalue Wrote: Did you want to address my rebuttal above? Smile

I think we just cross posted. My reply should be there. Sorry to take so long in responding... I was in dialysis.
Reply
#27
RE: Religiosity, Spirituality and the Moral
(February 18, 2015 at 4:05 pm)ether-ore Wrote: I doubt that I would be able to offer you an acceptable explanation, or rather one that would be acceptable to you. However, these are my thoughts on the matter: Any moral code on the face of this earth would necessarily be subjective or relative according to the definitions I gave earlier. Consequently, and by process of elimination, an objective moral code would have to be eternal as opposed to temporal. An eternal moral law would of necessity have to have an administrator... God.

If you think that an objective moral code can come about as a product of a subjective being, then I don't think you know what either of those words mean.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
Reply
#28
RE: Religiosity, Spirituality and the Moral
(February 18, 2015 at 5:13 pm)Esquilax Wrote:
(February 18, 2015 at 4:05 pm)ether-ore Wrote: I doubt that I would be able to offer you an acceptable explanation, or rather one that would be acceptable to you. However, these are my thoughts on the matter: Any moral code on the face of this earth would necessarily be subjective or relative according to the definitions I gave earlier. Consequently, and by process of elimination, an objective moral code would have to be eternal as opposed to temporal. An eternal moral law would of necessity have to have an administrator... God.

If you think that an objective moral code can come about as a product of a subjective being, then I don't think you know what either of those words mean.

I see your point. But as you may suspect, my not being an atheist, suggests that I do not see God as being subjective.
Reply
#29
RE: Religiosity, Spirituality and the Moral
(February 18, 2015 at 5:30 pm)ether-ore Wrote:
(February 18, 2015 at 5:13 pm)Esquilax Wrote: If you think that an objective moral code can come about as a product of a subjective being, then I don't think you know what either of those words mean.

I see your point. But as you may suspect, my not being an atheist, suggests that I do not see God as being subjective.

That doesn't change the fact that God is subjective.
Reply
#30
RE: Religiosity, Spirituality and the Moral
(February 18, 2015 at 5:49 pm)Surgenator Wrote:
(February 18, 2015 at 5:30 pm)ether-ore Wrote: I see your point. But as you may suspect, my not being an atheist, suggests that I do not see God as being subjective.

That doesn't change the fact that God is subjective.

For me, I happen to believe the eye witness accounts of prophets who over the millennia have reported the same story and have consistently and coherently recorded it in scripture. So, there is no doubt but that you will consider God to be subjective; But, since I believe these reports of the prophets to be true, then for me God is an objective truth.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything? Rhondazvous 87 10714 August 22, 2021 at 10:23 am
Last Post: brewer
  Why is religion in the business of moral policing? NuclearEnergy 85 19127 August 13, 2017 at 2:51 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Do theists need a threat to be moral? brewer 33 4859 June 14, 2016 at 1:43 am
Last Post: robvalue
  Atheists Have the Most Logical Reason for being Moral Rhondazvous 24 8161 January 22, 2016 at 6:49 pm
Last Post: Reforged
  A Hindu Perspective: Science vs. Spirituality Krishna Jaganath 70 11021 November 17, 2015 at 11:19 am
Last Post: dyresand
  What is Spirituality? drfuzzy 14 4581 September 14, 2015 at 2:20 pm
Last Post: robvalue
  My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values smax 60 15783 July 15, 2015 at 5:29 am
Last Post: smax
  Moral absolutism debates. Ugh. RobbyPants 16 3303 April 15, 2015 at 9:18 am
Last Post: DeistPaladin
  Moral Truth The Reality Salesman01 12 3795 February 21, 2015 at 12:09 pm
Last Post: goodwithoutgod
  Moral superiority: Seculars vs Religious Creed of Heresy 27 8448 February 16, 2015 at 10:50 am
Last Post: Zenith



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)