Religiosity, Spirituality and the Moral

[Thumpalumpacus]

Ah thanks for the notice JesusHChrist, very green to the whole online forum policy. Was trying to find like minded fellows interested in my area of research.

Spirituality (practically a neologism in modern times), I believe, while certainly still tainted with ambiguity in many circles has less to do with any supernaturally deduced doctrine of belief, but more to do with an awareness of everyday internal subjectivity. It is a lift off from Eastern philosophy (Hara Krishna, Tibetan Budhism etc.) and promotes things like meditation (a practice i fervently endorse) the sanctity of life and 'the present'.

As for morality, I am reluctant to posit my position for ethical reasons, however my original thesis proposal suggests that while it is inherently difficult to carve out universal truths within the moral topography, organised monotheism does not retain a monopoly as is so frequently thought among the religious (particularly related to social in-group tendencies).

My sense of spirituality, such as it is, doesn't inform my morality at all. What I call "spirituality" is simply a one-word condensation of my sense of the ineffable, and my feeling of smallness, when confronted with brute facts of nature.

I don't know what you mean by "moral topography", anyway. I know what I think is right or wrong, but it is not colored by where I sense my place in the world, which is currently Central Texas. The moral topography here is limestone hills split by canyons and waterways.

[robvalue]

If I may, I'd like to recommend a great book on this subject. It is entitled "What ever Happened to Good and Evil?" by Russ-Shafer Landau, who is a professor of Philosophy .

I concur with his thesis that the only viable moral code must be objective. There seems to be a problem however, on defining what constitutes "objective". I say that because in discussions I've had with others, they seem to want to identify their subjective moral codes as objective. That one of these (as an example) was the only source of the moral code is what made it subjective and I guess he couldn't see that. It is my opinion that an objective morality is not possible without God.

It is my further belief that all other moral codes in the world are necessarily subjective or relative and consequently are the source of conflict with others who disagree.

Russ-Shafer Landau explains that among moral skeptics are several categories. Moral nihilists claim that there are no moral laws. Moral subjectivists claim that there are moral laws, but that there is no verifiable basis for it (other than themselves and an immediate circle of associates). Moral relativists claim that moral codes are determined by the culture (or nation).

If God is deciding what the moral code is, then it's not objective, it's subjective to God. It's what God finds moral and immoral. If it were objective, it would not be created by God, but it would apply to God, and god could not decide it. You're appointing a random arbiter, and then claiming he "doesn't count" as being subjective when he makes decisions.

Also, if you have a prescribed moral code which you follow blindly, you are being amoral- without morals. You're making no consideration as to whether your actions actually benefit or harm those around you. You are merely a robot passing down judgements from someone else. If you do decide whether or not to apply any given part of the moral code in any situation, then you are filtering that code using your own morality. And of course, this is exactly what people do even when they claim to follow the "morality of the bible". Anyone who actually lives by what the bible told you to do would very quickly be dead or in jail.

[Gavin Duffy]

[quote='Gavin Duffy' pid='876834' dateline='1424106934']

My sense of spirituality, such as it is, doesn't inform my morality at all. What I call "spirituality" is simply a one-word condensation of my sense of the ineffable, and my feeling of smallness, when confronted with brute facts of nature.

I can relate, I would find it almost inconceivable not to find a sense of awe from our understanding of cosmology.

I don't know what you mean by "moral topography", anyway. I know what I think is right or wrong, but it is not colored by where I sense my place in the world, which is currently Central Texas. The moral topography here is limestone hills split by canyons and waterways.

That was perhaps a failed attempt at metaphor lol. Good answer though! What i simply meant was that morality can be viewed as a series of diverse distributed troughs and peaks, temporal in nature, subject to erosion and sedimentation. That the current climate limits us to relativist perspectives. Perhaps that was a more abstract metaphor than i thought lol.

[ether-ore]

It is my opinion that an objective morality is not possible without God.

Is it possible with god? Because if your claim is that it is possible with god but not possible without god, I'd like an explanation.

That's a claim that I've never seen effectively defended. It's come to the point that I don't believe it can be defended. So, if you have justification for your belief that objective morality is not possible without god (but is possible with god), then then I'd really like to know what that justification is.

I doubt that I would be able to offer you an acceptable explanation, or rather one that would be acceptable to you. However, these are my thoughts on the matter: Any moral code on the face of this earth would necessarily be subjective or relative according to the definitions I gave earlier. Consequently, and by process of elimination, an objective moral code would have to be eternal as opposed to temporal. An eternal moral law would of necessity have to have an administrator... God.

[robvalue]

Did you want to address my rebuttal above?

[ether-ore]

Did you want to address my rebuttal above?

I think we just cross posted. My reply should be there. Sorry to take so long in responding... I was in dialysis.

[Esquilax]

I doubt that I would be able to offer you an acceptable explanation, or rather one that would be acceptable to you. However, these are my thoughts on the matter: Any moral code on the face of this earth would necessarily be subjective or relative according to the definitions I gave earlier. Consequently, and by process of elimination, an objective moral code would have to be eternal as opposed to temporal. An eternal moral law would of necessity have to have an administrator... God.

If you think that an objective moral code can come about as a product of a subjective being, then I don't think you know what either of those words mean.

[ether-ore]

I doubt that I would be able to offer you an acceptable explanation, or rather one that would be acceptable to you. However, these are my thoughts on the matter: Any moral code on the face of this earth would necessarily be subjective or relative according to the definitions I gave earlier. Consequently, and by process of elimination, an objective moral code would have to be eternal as opposed to temporal. An eternal moral law would of necessity have to have an administrator... God.

If you think that an objective moral code can come about as a product of a subjective being, then I don't think you know what either of those words mean.

I see your point. But as you may suspect, my not being an atheist, suggests that I do not see God as being subjective.

[Surgenator]

If you think that an objective moral code can come about as a product of a subjective being, then I don't think you know what either of those words mean.

I see your point. But as you may suspect, my not being an atheist, suggests that I do not see God as being subjective.

That doesn't change the fact that God is subjective.

[ether-ore]

I see your point. But as you may suspect, my not being an atheist, suggests that I do not see God as being subjective.

That doesn't change the fact that God is subjective.

For me, I happen to believe the eye witness accounts of prophets who over the millennia have reported the same story and have consistently and coherently recorded it in scripture. So, there is no doubt but that you will consider God to be subjective; But, since I believe these reports of the prophets to be true, then for me God is an objective truth.