If I were an Atheist

[Whateverist]

How would I approach the debate were I an atheist?

1. Drop the ‘I’m a weak-atheist’ strategy.

Not a strategy. It's called having a handle on the truth. There is no reason to say more. Nothing rides on it. It isn't important enough to deliberately misrepresent what I know and don't know.

Rather than atheists giving up speaking accurately. It would be better if theists would join us in this. Instead of raving about their certainty and belief, perhaps theists should return to their roots: humility and faith. Faith is much less cocky than belief.

[Nope]

Mine too. My grandmother was more like my mother and I still miss her

and she was a mentor and friend. just so much all in one person.

so, may I ask, how do you manage your emotions as an atheist, when it comes to something as traumatic as that?

It is hard. I wish that I had advice. When I first lost faith, I started lighting a candle for her. That sounds opposite of what an atheist would do but the ritual made me feel a connection to her memory and that made me feel a little better.

[Cato]

so, may I ask, how do you manage your emotions as an atheist, when it comes to something as traumatic as that?

Same as every other human that's ever existed. Most of us rely on the empathy from someone that we're close to. It also depends on the emotion I'm dealing with. I've taken a shit load of money to a batting cage and swatted 90mph fastballs until I've ripped my calluses off. I can also parlay angst into a few hours of aggressive guitar playing that is more full contact sport than music. I can also shut myself away and have a good cry. I've also channeled my emotions into volunteering. A loss of a fond pet might find me spending a day at an animal shelter. A loss of an elderly relative might find me spending an afternoon at a retirement home. Works for me, may not work for others.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Laughably incorrect.

In absolutely no way does evidence support religious claims.

The reason the theists put so much importance on faith is because they need to override the need for evidence because they have none.

And furthermore, the search for evidence bespeaks a lack of faith.

[Dystopia]

1. Drop the ‘I’m a weak-atheist’ strategy.

There are no gods the same way there aren't Santa Klaus' . Happy now? Oh, and does this change anything at all?

[Thumpalumpacus]

I can also parlay angst into a few hours of aggressive guitar playing that is more full contact sport than music.

Y'know? My guitar is my therapist.

[Angrboda]

I have made a case on this very board citing several lines of evidence.

Oh whoopity doo. As I recall you made three bites at the same apple and came up dry all three times.

[Faith No More]

Came up dry? As I recall it was more like fell flat on his face.

[Dystopia]

First I would have to come to grips with the fact that in spite of a decline in religious attendance and participation atheism isn’t a growing movement. It’s not just an issue of popularity. There are many unpopular beliefs and facts that are believed because of a preponderance of evidence in their favor, not because the belief is popular. Many popular beliefs have been abandoned do to evidence against them. Considering many atheists equate belief in God with belief in Santa Claus how is it they’re not gaining any traction? If the existence of God were as implausible as the existence of Santa Claus then there should be as many atheists as those who don’t believe in Santa Claus. If atheists know something that leads them to conclude belief in God is equivalent to belief in Santa they are keeping it a well-guarded secret or they are dismal failures in communication. The question is what are atheists doing wrong? Why aren’t they expressing their viewpoint in a way that actually persuades people? I suspect some atheists enjoy being contrary and being part of a small often loathed minority. Some atheists just like to think there much smarter than most and therefore their belief isn’t for the gullible masses.

You are absolutely correct, I don't wish to "convert" anyone to atheism and if people choose to remain ignorant that's their problem. I don't give a fuck.

Oh, can you explain me why is belief in god different than belief in santa? does god have any evidence? The argument of popularity or the majority doesn't do you any favours. The majority of people in the world believe in something irrational.

If you compare two irrational beliefs it's always possible to find out more people believe in one of them. That doesn't make them more true. More people believe in Allah than Zeus, does this mean Allah is more plausible?

How would I approach the debate were I an atheist?

You don't dictate the rules. Did you name yourself god?

1. Drop the ‘I’m a weak-atheist’ strategy.

I’d go further and criticize those who refer to themselves as weak atheists. If atheists can’t convince others who call themselves atheists that God doesn’t exist just as an opinion and not as a fact, how can they possibly convince someone who believes in the existence of God that God doesn’t exist? I know many atheists refer to themselves as weak atheists only so they can say they make no claim about whether God exists and therefore they have no burden of evidence. The upshot is it makes the case in favor of atheism so weak even those who call themselves atheists won’t opine that God doesn’t exist. I think the claim made by atheists they only lack belief in the existence of God is bogus, in reality it is there opinion that God doesn’t exist.

Yes, gods don't exist, it's fairytales. Happy?

2. Drop linking belief in Santa to belief in God argument.

It’s a silly argument on the face of it. If belief in God were akin to belief in Santa Claus (or fairies, invisible pink elephants and so on) then why doesn’t 80% of the population believe in Santa Claus? If belief in God is as silly as belief in Santa Claus they need to explain why lucid sane adults don’t believe in Santa Claus but do believe in God? Secondly there is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence that a mystical person known as Santa who delivers presents worldwide on Christmas is easy to debunk and disprove. If belief in God is akin to belief in Santa how can there be weak atheists who only lack belief in God? Do atheists think Santa may exist but they merely lack that belief?

Neither one exists.

The majority of the population believes stupid things.

3. Drop the bashing, marginalizing and demonizing of believers.

I know such tactics make a big splash with fellow atheists but it does nothing for those sitting on the fence and are interested in an actual debate between atheists and theists. It makes atheists look petty, smug and arrogant and that they can’t make a factual argument from the evidence.

If you piss me off I have the right to insult you. I don't bash theists without any reason. I bash theists, for example, when I discover that Muslims stoned a 10 year old girl to death for being raped

If I were an atheist (a real atheist that actually believes and claims God doesn’t exist) I would clearly state such a belief is an opinion. It’s what I think is true but acknowledge I’m not certain of it. That’s what an opinion is, a statement you have reason to believe is true but can’t be certain is true. I don’t know of any atheists claiming it’s a fact God doesn’t exist so it must be a belief that God doesn’t exist so why the animosity towards others who have a difference of opinion? If I ran an atheist board I would welcome theists to the board, respect their difference of opinion but share the facts and evidence I believe challenges that belief.

We respect theists and some of us get along pretty well. Some of us are married to theists of different faiths and have religious kids.

Oh and thanks for the compliment, I didn't know I was a real atheist

-There is no direct evidence a Creator caused the universe.

-The laws of physics over vast periods of time appear to have caused all the things we observe including our own existence.

-Much of the universe appears to be chaotic and unguided.

-Evolution appears to account for how living things developed on going complexity.

Are you going to refute this at least?

Therefore was I an atheist I would argue from those facts God doesn’t exist which ironically means I’m making a better argument than most atheists make. I wouldn't antagonize anyone, bash them over the head, question their sanity, just make the case and let it go at that.

That's what we do, it's theists who think all atheists are disrespectful pseudo-intellectual pothead rebellious hispters

[Drew_2013]

Because the preponderance of evidence favors the theistic hypothesis.

No.

In my opinion. As an atheist I assume you'd believe otherwise.

God has no such burden... he just works in mysterious ways, huh?

Not at all, theists claim God caused, designed and created the universe and life. Atheists claim mechanistic unguided forces minus plan or intent caused all we see in some mysterious fashion.

Well, look what the cat dragged in.... Welcome back, Drew!

I'll try not to wear out my welcome...

Because the preponderance of evidence favors the theistic hypothesis.

Laughably incorrect.

Make your case...I've made mine.

And many untrue things with no evidence behind them at all are believed because they are attractive, and have a large amount of cultural and historical inertia behind them. The difference is that only one of us recognizes that the growth rate of a belief in no way affects the truth of it.

There are many popular beliefs which in light of strong evidence to the contrary slowly in some cases die out. Initially there was a lot of resistance among scientists to the idea the universe began to exist but now nearly all accept it in some form or another. I know many think of atheism as not a belief in anything but a disbelief only but that is rather a shallow view point. To be intellectually honest if atheism is true that no God exists then we owe the existence of the universe, life and mind to mechanistic forces that never intended such to occur including their own existence but it all came together unplanned through sheer happenstance. That is an incredible claim and without a whole lot to support it. Certainly no less incredible than the claim we owe the existence of the universe to a Creator. I agree popularity has no bearing on the truth of a matter.

So basically what you're asking is, why hasn't atheism reversed hundreds and thousands of years of contiguous religious belief, across multiple cultures and gods, often defended violently or emotionally... in a couple of decades?

If belief in God were as absurd as belief in Santa Claus you wouldn't have to make a case, it would collapse upon its own weight. You don't know of any Santa debate forums do you?

Atheism hasn't gained as much traction as you'd like because it's an uphill battle, while being pushed back downhill all the way.

Its an uphill battle in part because its leaves the mystery of our existence and that of the universe in as much of a lurch as ever. Secondly what evidence is there that mechanistic forces could bootstrap themselves into existence and then minus plan, intent or engineering degree could cause exacting laws of nature to produce stars, galaxies, solar systems, planets and ultimately produce something utterly unlike itself, life and mind. Most atheists will shrug and say we don't know how we got here or why that happened we just hold the notion it was a Creator in disdain and contempt. That is why its a non-starter and non-seller. However, atheists could make their point of view more palatable by changing their tactics which have been disastrous.

And if parents didn't continue to press god belief on their children, if they didn't threaten their children with hell for expressing disbelief, if parents actually treated the idea of god like they do the idea of Santa, you might have a point. As it is, they allow one belief to fall by the wayside once the child matures, while they reinforce the other belief daily through more means than I care to count. You're drawing an entirely false equivalency here.

Perhaps you don't have a teenager but I can assure they test and often rebel against everything a parent says. I have met some atheist parents who were mortified there off spring became theists. Where did they go wrong? Do you think parents could persuade children to continue believing in Santa Claus?

Why would I do that, [drop the weak atheist strategy] if it's an accurate reflection of my belief? You're essentially asking that I lie to people when I represent myself, and this is supposed to help me make my case?

If you lack belief God exists and are justified in that lack of belief then why wouldn't you also have (just as an opinion) the belief God doesn't exist? Over all its a losing strategy because as a theist I don't deny God exists but as a weak atheist you don't deny God exists either. We can't even debate the existence of God because you don't deny God exists. If the case in favor or atheism is so weak, so tepid that you can't even bring yourself to opine God doesn't exist how weak is that?

The problem is that you're attributing the wrong position to us. The weak atheist position isn't that god doesn't exist, it's that there is a severe lack of evidence for the god proposition, and that one should not believe claims that don't have enough evidence behind them.

By the same token, evidently there is a severe lack of evidence in the non-existence of God so you won't render the opinion God doesn't exist. You're not only an a-theist you are an a-atheist as well. And its not that you reject the idea God doesn't exist...you just lack the belief God doesn't exist. See what I mean? That an absurd position (IMHO).

Oh, you know that? How do you know that?

I've debated this issue for a long time.

Well, I don't think you get to dictate what we really think unless we tell you, Drew. Good to see you haven't dropped that complete lack of awareness of other people's boundaries you had the last time we spoke.

I don't get to dictate, I do get to voice my opinion. That's what a discussion board is for no?

Though the level of evidence for both propositions is the same, the god claim has a manipulative support mechanism that simply does not exist for the Santa claim.

Then your implying that parents actually know that God doesn't exist also but continue with the charade anyway. Is there enough evidence for you to render the opinion Santa doesn't exist or do you also just lack that belief due to lack of evidence of Santa's existence but maintain that Santa may in fact exist. Do you believe that if parents didn't drop the Santa charade children would grow up into adults and continue to believe in Santa?

If someone comes in bible quotes blazing, what are we supposed to do? One of the reasons why we are atheists is that the bible isn't convincing and certainly not evidence for the existence of god.

I agree...it isn't.

I doubt that. Losing one's faith is not something a person wants to do, and it was a pretty fearful experience. Given that, I could easily see how a believer would cling even more tightly to his beliefs.

That's not historically how it goes all kinds of beliefs about how the world works have been abandoned. You don't see too many people worshiping the rain god or god of fertility even though it was incredibly popular.

That, of course, assumes that the atheist is trying to change the reader's mind ... and faith. I don't post here arguing with theists in order to change their minds. I already know that they are incapable of apostasy. They have gone out of their way to avoid educating themselves about the issues at hand, and often I've seen outright dishonesty from them; both those facts, and they are facts, indicate a refusal to subject their beliefs to any challenge.

I've subjected my belief in theism to the harshest critics around. Born again atheists...

You seem to have a problem with the so-called weak atheist position because it isn't a positive claim in the form of 'God does not exist'. But there is a hidden positive claim in the weak atheist position. It is: Theists have consistently failed to adequately present good evidence in support of their case that God exists; therefore, I do not accept their claims.

Its your fellow atheists who should have a problem with the weak atheist position. If they can't convince fellow atheists to opine God doesn't exist then it must be a terribly weak case.