Indoctrinating Children in Religion

[Cato]

You all should realize that what you are proposing is all idealistic words. When it comes down to it, if we really care abut our children we will each what we believe is best for them. It's not only just health and safety things, but what will benefit them overall. Do you really believe that a christian parent who believes that he possesses the only way to eternal salvation, will say "I know that if my child doesn't follow Christ he will be condemned to eternal death, but I'm not going to teach him that. If he doesn't become a christian, well that's great." If I think it's a bad thing to be a muslim, or whatever, then I'm going to tell them that.

Error carried forward; no longer just a polite way of saying 'you fucked up' on a math exam.

[Norman Humann]

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You all should realize that what you are proposing is all idealistic words.

You're wrong. I'm a father, and have practical experience.

When it comes down to it, if we really care abut our children we will each what we believe is best for them. It's not only just health and safety things, but what will benefit them overall.

I'm not sure how teaching your child to fear the wrath of an unseen deity, teaching him to fear eternal damnation, is healthy. Perhaps you would go into detail?

Do you really believe that a christian parent who believes that he possesses the only way to eternal salvation, will say "I know that if my child doesn't follow Christ he will be condemned to eternal death, but I'm not going to teach him that. If he doesn't become a christian, well that's great." If I think it's a bad thing to be a muslim, or whatever, then I'm going to tell them that.

That's nice. Just stop kidding yourself and think you're doing your child a favor, because you're not. You're teaching him that might makes right; you're teaching him to not question an authority figure; you're teaching him that he is worthy of nothing but self-hatred.

Why you think those lessons are good things to learn is beyond me .... but hey, keep his ass out of jail and I'll be happy.

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This. I wish I could give multiple kudos.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Thanks, man.

[Lek]

Lek: do you see a difference between educating your children about your religious beliefs, and telling them what they should believe? Which did you do?

The circumcision issue is a perfect example of emotion vs logic. The real reason you had your children circumscized (feel free to correct me) is a religious reason, an emotional attachment to a mythology, and it's part in the story. Yet you put forward logical reasons about it being of some actual benefit as a procedure. Unless you'd like to put me straight, you did not do this for health reasons, you did it for religious reasons. Then this logical, health argument is a rationalization to make yourself feel better about have made the decision, for other reasons. But it's a failure as a logical argument, as almost all such rationalizations tend to be. Of course it's possible you may be deceiving yourself as to the real reason.

The facts are there is no real evidence it has any benefit at all, doctors do not advise it as standard. It's a mutilation which cannot easily be undone and which the child cannot consent to. There may have been a benefit 2000 years ago where personal hygiene was worse, but assuming you're taking good care of your child that is now entirely irrelevant, so why not let it decide when it is older if it wants to be mutilated? You're literally following 2000 year old advice. That's what the bible is. Most likely they wove this "advice" into the story.

And answer me this, if I make up a religion where I think cutting a little bit of my babies ears off is a "good thing" for them, should I be allowed to do this? Can I do what I like as long as I'm not causing too much damage?

And again, a perfect example of religion leading to real world actions with real consequences.

If I was your child, I would be angry you had done it to me. If you felt remorse and realized you had done it for bad reasons, I would forgive you. But if you persisted and claimed it was still a good thing and you'd do it again, I would be mad as hell.

I'm not having a go at you personally, I'm evaluating your beliefs and why I think religion has caused a problem here. I'll happily shut up if you're not interested in my evaluations

Say what you think, Robvalue. You do it nicely enough. I'll say this to all of you, though. I didn't even think of my faith when I decided to have my son circumcised. I just did because most everyone did it and I thought it was the healthy thing to do. I don't know anyone who regrets having been circumcised. Like I said earlier in the thread, I had a friend who had it done in his twenties and it was much more painful at that point. He had it done for his specific health reasons. There never was any requirement for christians to have their sons circumcised. I don't know of any christians who actually have their children circumcised for religious reasons. Maybe there are some who do, but they don't understand the christian faith. In fact, in the book of Galatians Paul chastised those early christians who were gravitating back toward the Jewish customs, and specifically addressed circumcision for reasons of faith.

[FatAndFaithless]

I don't know anyone who regrets having been circumcised.

Hard to "regret" something you had no hand in choosing at such a young age, you wouldn't know any different.

I don't know of any christians who actually have their children circumcised for religious reasons.

You just need to talk to more Christians.

Maybe there are some who do, but they don't understand the christian faith.

Of course they don't. You do.

[Silver]

I am siding with Lek on the discussion of circumcision. I honestly think anti-circumcision people make a big stink about nothing.

The main arguments seem to center around personal right to choose and casualties.

As Lek already pointed out, needing to get it done past the point of infancy is a much more painful process whereby memories of the procedure are retained into adulthood. I have no memory of my circumcision or the pain associated with it when I was an infant, and I am glad that I was circumcised then rather than possibly needing it later in life. There is nothing wrong with the parent deciding for the child what is best for him or her.

Just because there are sometimes casualties resulting from circumcision is no reason to never get circumcised. There are casualties all the time from surgery, but if one needs it one is not going to unreasonably forego with a possibly life-saving procedure.

[robvalue]

OK Lek well, if you thought you were doing it for health reasons, then I respect that. Fair enough. I apologize for my incorrect assumptions.

Sion: I'm confused about what you're saying. Do you think it is a beneficial procedure to have generally as an infant regardless? Sure it's possible it may need removing later, but does that justify always doing it?

[GrandizerII]

I don't know anyone who regrets having been circumcised.

http://www.circumstitions.com/Resent.html

[robvalue]

To clarify, if there was a specific reason for an individual baby to have it removed at the recommendation of a doctor, of course I'd have no quibble with that. It's just I'm not aware that there is good evidence that generally chopping as standard is accepted as good practice. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

I'm angry it was done to me, and it wasn't even done to me.

[Silver]

Do you think it is a beneficial procedure to have generally as an infant regardless?

Yes.

Sure it's possible it may need removing later, but does that justify always doing it?

Yes.