The Trinity Explained

[Minimalist]

If you picure it like a person, God the Father would be from the neck up. God the Son would be from the neck down left side. God the Spirit would be from the neck down right side.

Hey, tack.... could you point me to the line in the bible that contains that little holy anatomy lesson?

[tavarish]

To use your analogy of the conjoined twins, yes we can seperate them surgically and indeed have truly seperate entitis, butin realit don't conjoined twins share the same dna and fingerprints?

1. All identical twins share the same DNA.
2. No, conjoined twins don't share the same fingerprints.

http://multiples.about.com/cs/funfacts/a...rprint.htm

I don't understand your analogy here. Conjoined twins are still regarded as two separate entities.

Can one be in Oklahoma and another go to Virginia? By design they move as one.

And...the ability to move away from one another is evidence of what?

By design tehy're made of one substance.

1. It is by a defect in the pregnancy that they share a similar structure.
2. All identical twins are made of one "substance".

Can you not see a conjoined twin walk down the street and accuratly say he's walking down the street or they are walking down the street. Wouldn't both be accurate.

No, because a twin implies two people - that's kind of the point. It's not a person with two heads, it's two people sharing one body. Completely different concept. Not only that, you can demonstrate that the entities that encompass this body are indeed different from one another, both physically and reasonably.

One the singular object in it's entirey or multiple each individual personality? By action their purposes and wills are different therefore they can interact with us in different ways.

..and here you are again referring to "them" as separate entities. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to say they're part of a collective, so be it, but don't then go and say they're the same thing. I can say Superman and Wonderwoman are part of the Superfriends, but it would be foolish of me to say that they're not separate entities, and the fact that they're connected with a common goal somehow means that Superman is indeed Wonderwoman.

Jesus took human form. The Spirit resides within us. God resides in Heaven.

So people pray to all three. Please tell me how this isn't worshiping 3 gods - all with their own will and mind?

To answer your question he sacrificed himself for us by going through the trials and tribulations in human form. There is no sacrificing to. It would be like saying " I sacrificed some of my time to help the homeless" Who are you sacrificing to? No one really, just another way of saying giving something up to get something done.

When I give my time to the homeless, the time is not a sacrifice. It is not a noun, as it is intangible. It isn't an offering to a deity, it's a representation of efforts made to help people in a reasonable way. Jesus, like other blood sacrifices, was the sacrifice.

Keeping the blood clean for sacrifice to his father:

John 20:17
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father - but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Comparing it to animal sacrifice:

Hebrews 9:12
"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."


Referring to God and Jesus separately, and the blood sacrifice to God - Christ.

Hebrews 9:24-26
"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now ONCE in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

Christ buying our sins back from God with his blood sacrifice, also referring to the Holy Ghost as a separate entity from God and Christ.

Acts 20:28
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood"

[tackattack]

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To use your analogy of the conjoined twins, yes we can seperate them surgically and indeed have truly seperate entitis, butin realit don't conjoined twins share the same dna and fingerprints?

1. All identical twins share the same DNA.
2. No, conjoined twins don't share the same fingerprints.

http://multiples.about.com/cs/funfacts/a...rprint.htm

I don't understand your analogy here. Conjoined twins are still regarded as two separate entities.

Can one be in Oklahoma and another go to Virginia? By design they move as one.

And...the ability to move away from one another is evidence of what?

By design tehy're made of one substance.

1. It is by a defect in the pregnancy that they share a similar structure.
2. All identical twins are made of one "substance".

Can you not see a conjoined twin walk down the street and accuratly say he's walking down the street or they are walking down the street. Wouldn't both be accurate.

No, because a twin implies two people - that's kind of the point. It's not a person with two heads, it's two people sharing one body. Completely different concept. Not only that, you can demonstrate that the entities that encompass this body are indeed different from one another, both physically and reasonably.

One the singular object in it's entirey or multiple each individual personality? By action their purposes and wills are different therefore they can interact with us in different ways.

..and here you are again referring to "them" as separate entities. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to say they're part of a collective, so be it, but don't then go and say they're the same thing. I can say Superman and Wonderwoman are part of the Superfriends, but it would be foolish of me to say that they're not separate entities, and the fact that they're connected with a common goal somehow means that Superman is indeed Wonderwoman.

Jesus took human form. The Spirit resides within us. God resides in Heaven.

So people pray to all three. Please tell me how this isn't worshiping 3 gods - all with their own will and mind?

To answer your question he sacrificed himself for us by going through the trials and tribulations in human form. There is no sacrificing to. It would be like saying " I sacrificed some of my time to help the homeless" Who are you sacrificing to? No one really, just another way of saying giving something up to get something done.

When I give my time to the homeless, the time is not a sacrifice. It is not a noun, as it is intangible. It isn't an offering to a deity, it's a representation of efforts made to help people in a reasonable way. Jesus, like other blood sacrifices, was the sacrifice.

Keeping the blood clean for sacrifice to his father:

John 20:17
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father - but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Comparing it to animal sacrifice:

Hebrews 9:12
"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."


Referring to God and Jesus separately, and the blood sacrifice to God - Christ.

Hebrews 9:24-26
"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now ONCE in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

Christ buying our sins back from God with his blood sacrifice, also referring to the Holy Ghost as a separate entity from God and Christ.

Acts 20:28
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood"

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@tav-
2-In regards to my analogy; I perhaps used the incorrect word and I apologize. I was talking about conjoined twins

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while they most assuredly share a physical connection, which you are simply dismissing and treating them like this

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and you are grossly over analyzing the analogy, in this analogy and can be considered one entity. Perhaps the twins aren't phenomenologically identical, but genetically they are one. Phenotypes requires physical interaction with a physical environment and God is metaphysical in nature. I was simply trying to explain how they are one substance, like the conjoined twins are one continuous connected human form. They also have knowledge of each other intimately. They also share similar qualities, like a conjoined twins genetics, but have differences like the phenotype of a conjoined twin. I hope you can get the analogy now that we've over analyzed it to death.
2-As far as people worshiping all three. Jesus points people to worship God

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John 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

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and the Holy spirit points us towards God

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Romans 8:27 (New International Version)
27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

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So I don't know why anyone is "worshiping" anyone but God. They might be speaking of or to someone other than God out of habit or teaching, but the worship is only the singular God.

3-As far as time not being a noun and therefore not qualifying as being able to be sacrificed, get real??!? Do I really need to pull out a dictionary here. It most assuredly is a noun and a common enough colloquialism to say you're "sacrificing you time" for your art or whatever purpose you have. You're right sacrificing time isn't an offering to a deity but it is a sacrifice. There fore you can hopefully see where the analogy I'm using is appropriate to my points listed as to why Jesus isn't sacrificing any part of him to another part of the Godhead, but he is doing a great sacrifice.



@min- I'd link the site but you're trying to liberalize my analogy and then prove it untrue because it's not scriptural based. As some of the verses quoted (And there are plenty of better one, but not what you're looking for I'm afraid) by tav shows above they're 3 separate entities worshiped as one God.

[Godscreated]

First Christ gave His life for us, He sacrificed Himself for us, His sacrifice was not made to the Father so God did not sacrifice Himself to Himself.

When you make an animal sacrifice to appease the gods (or Yahweh) for your sins, the animal isn't being sacrificed to the priest. The animal is (theoretically) being sacrificed to the gods to appease their wrath.

In cultures that offered human sacrifices to appease the gods, the human isn't dying for the community, even though the are theoretically the beneficiaries. The human is being sacrificed to the gods.

Jesus was essentially to be the penultimate sacrifice for sins, to appease the wrath of Yahweh and pave the way for our salvation (theoretically). He replaced the need for animal sacrifices as he performed that very role. He was sacrificed to Yahweh, as the previous animals were. You can't use the fact that we are (theoretically) the beneficiaries to obfuscate the issue. Yahweh is who he was sacrificed to.

But he IS Yahweh, and so he is sacrificing himself to himself in order to convince himself to forgive us.

Clear?

No that is not clear show me Bibically that you are correct.

[DeistPaladin]

No that is not clear show me Bibically that you are correct.

Well, help me out then. Tell me what part isn't clear and I'll give you the passage to review.

[Godscreated]

@TOO- He did sacrifice part of himself.

To what did he sacrifice part of himself?

This is what I mean by you guys take things from TV and try to apply it to God and it want work. Christ sacrificed Himself for us to cover our sins Christ could have only sacrificed Himself to God if He had done something wrong.

If you picure it like a person, God the Father would be from the neck up. God the Son would be from the neck down left side. God the Spirit would be from the neck down right side.

...so God has no control over the son and the holy spirit? Do any of them have control over each other?

You should read the Bible verses that I posted the answer is there. They are of one mind they have the same attributes they are three entities that share one common goal. That goal is to glorify God, I know you do not understand this concept but it is what it is. They do not control each other they work as one.

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[quote='Godschild' pid='96579' dateline='1285818704']
First Christ gave His life for us, He sacrificed Himself for us, His sacrifice was not made to the Father so God did not sacrifice Himself to Himself.

When you make an animal sacrifice to appease the gods (or Yahweh) for your sins, the animal isn't being sacrificed to the priest. The animal is (theoretically) being sacrificed to the gods to appease their wrath.

In cultures that offered human sacrifices to appease the gods, the human isn't dying for the community, even though the are theoretically the beneficiaries. The human is being sacrificed to the gods.

Jesus was essentially to be the penultimate sacrifice for sins, to appease the wrath of Yahweh and pave the way for our salvation (theoretically). He replaced the need for animal sacrifices as he performed that very role. He was sacrificed to Yahweh, as the previous animals were. You can't use the fact that we are (theoretically) the beneficiaries to obfuscate the issue. Yahweh is who he was sacrificed to.

But he IS Yahweh, and so he is sacrificing himself to himself in order to convince himself to forgive us.

Clear?

What I put in bold.

[Minimalist]

@min- I'd link the site but you're trying to liberalize my analogy and then prove it untrue because it's not scriptural based.

Oh no, tack. You know me. I think the "scriptures" are absolute bullshit from the word go. However, since it is you guys who inform us that all of this stuff is in there I just wondered if you had a source for that one.

Frankly, even if it was in "scriptures" that would not save it from being bullshit.


Some things cannot be saved.

[Edwardo Piet]

[...]But he IS Yahweh, and so he is sacrificing himself to himself in order to convince himself to forgive us.

Clear?

That's right folks: Even God can suffer from schizophrenia!

[Jaysyn]

That's right folks: Even God can suffer from schizophrenia!

That would actually explain a lot .... if he/she/it was real to start with.

[tavarish]

2-In regards to my analogy; I perhaps used the incorrect word and I apologize. I was talking about conjoined twins

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while they most assuredly share a physical connection, which you are simply dismissing and treating them like this

---

---

and you are grossly over analyzing the analogy, in this analogy and can be considered one entity.

So let's try to make sense of this, because you're still trying to tell me an apple is an orange.

You're using conjoined twins, two people attached to each other - forming a body and comparing that to a concept of 3 invisible and unverifiable entities - and making the point that 3 = 1.

I'm not saying conjoined twins don't share a physical body, but what I am saying is that they're regarded as different entities. They have different names, have their own wills, fears, emotions and dreams. They even have different fingerprints.

If we're speaking in terms of entities, which we are, then conjoined twins are just as separate as identical twins. However, what I think you're doing is trying to make the point that their physical connection is analogous to your God's connection with the other 2, which doesn't follow in the least - since one is about sharing a physical connection, and another is strictly conceptual and has nothing to do with physical reality.

In any case, ALL of the parties are separate entities, much like my Superfriends analogy. Yes, they serve a common goal, but there are distinguishing characteristics between them, not to mention a will and mind of their own, by your own admission.

Perhaps the twins aren't phenomenologically identical, but genetically they are one.

And so are identical twins. On that basis, can you refer to them as one entity? If I clone 100 sheep with the same genetic material, will I have only one sheep?

Phenotypes requires physical interaction with a physical environment and God is metaphysical in nature.

So you understand how your analogy does not apply.

I was simply trying to explain how they are one substance, like the conjoined twins are one continuous connected human form.

Yes, but they are still separate entities, as they have minds and wills independent of their sibling.

They also have knowledge of each other intimately.

And? What does this have to do with justifying 3=1?

They also share similar qualities, like a conjoined twins genetics, but have differences like the phenotype of a conjoined twin. I hope you can get the analogy now that we've over analyzed it to death.

I hope you can get how the analogy doesn't make sense and isn't applicable to an erroneous concept. Sharing similar qualities, yet being different is demonstrating that they are different entities. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

2-As far as people worshiping all three. Jesus points people to worship God

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John 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

---

and the Holy spirit points us towards God

---

Romans 8:27 (New International Version)
27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

---

So I don't know why anyone is "worshiping" anyone but God. They might be speaking of or to someone other than God out of habit or teaching, but the worship is only the singular God.

What?!

Jesus talking about praying to him:

John 14:14
If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

Praying to God:

Matthew 6:9
This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,

Praying to the Holy Spirit:

Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

Jude 20:
But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.

On the all 3 as separate entities:

John 15:26
“When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me"


Are we still trying to prove Homer Simpson is Barney Gumble because they're both on the Simpsons?

3-As far as time not being a noun and therefore not qualifying as being able to be sacrificed, get real??!? Do I really need to pull out a dictionary here. It most assuredly is a noun and a common enough colloquialism to say you're "sacrificing you time" for your art or whatever purpose you have.

Do you realize that an intangible sacrifice, such as effort, is much different than a tangible one, like an animal or human? It paints a vastly different picture, not to mention the sacrifice was to purchase the sin incurred by man. Please do explain, who was selling it?

You're right sacrificing time isn't an offering to a deity but it is a sacrifice. There fore you can hopefully see where the analogy I'm using is appropriate to my points listed as to why Jesus isn't sacrificing any part of him to another part of the Godhead, but he is doing a great sacrifice.

I don't understand how your analogy stands. Jesus died so he could exploit a loophole in God's rulebook because things were getting out of hand. He did it to appease the system that God implemented.

Man sins, and is destined for hell by God. Jesus offers himself as collateral for man's sins.
How is this not an offering to a deity?