Hostage to fear

[Simon Moon]

Minor correction:

There is no such thing as a 'conversion to atheism'. That is an incoherent statement.

Carry on with the thread...

ˈkänˌvərt/

1. a person who has been persuaded to change their religious faith or other beliefs.

Someone who leaves Christianity for atheism has, by definition, been persuaded one way or another to change their faith or beliefs.

Since I, like every single human on earth, did not start out life as a Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim or whatever baby, I did not change my religious beliefs, I gave up the ones I was taught. In effect, I deconverted. 

I was converted away from my natural state of not having religious beliefs by my parents, ancient texts, culture, churches, temples, mosques, etc.

To use a cliche, conversion is like changing from one channel on the TV to another. Atheism is like walking away from the TV altogether and choosing no TV channel.


In addition, how can having a single position on a single claim (the disbelief that a god exists) be a conversion?

[tonechaser77]

As I started to investigate my own religion, I began to cast out doctrines like hell... because you have a very difficult problem with theodicy if you hold to it.  I then decided that the evil that occurs now is the most pressing issue if hell is out of the equation.  What use is my God if He doesn't intervene?  Therefore, God must not be a personal God.

I know the bible is not historically accurate, we can prove the documents are fables.  I know we have no evidence for the suspension of physical laws to allow for the possibility of miracles.  I know human biology doesn't allow for something like a virgin birth.

I just can't seem to give it up.  If I've cast out the doctrine of hell, you'd say I have nothing to fear.  I've drawn out all that I cannot hold to if I am going to hold to that which is true, there's nothing left.  Absolutely nothing.  My fear is entirely irrational.

My own Grandmother threatened me with hell.  A girl I liked in high school... I asked her "So if I don't believe in Jesus, but am a good person, I'm still going to go to hell?"  When she said "I'm sorry, but yes."  I literally burst into tears in art class.

Perhaps it's those experiences that still hold me hostage to the Church.  My Grandmother sends my children books that I have to go through to weed out the crazy shit.  I'm embarrassed and ashamed to tell this story, but my eldest boy toasted the end of the world in front of my atheist parents during their last visit before supper.  The reaction he got sent him into tears.  I, of course, comforted him.  I teach my children that there is no hell, but then he clings to the return of Christ when this loving God comes back to destroy the Earth?

It's all complete and utter bullshit.  But I'm so f'ing scared to denounce it for my children's sake.  I am programmed to not say anything bad about Christ.  I literally can't... and I've even tried.  I can even tell you honestly that I love Christ (seriously, no joke).  But when I look at these things critically, there's nothing left for me to hold on to.

Church has been so good for my wife and children, though.  I'm afraid of what my wife will think of me.  I'm afraid I would be taking something good away from them if I am openly agnostic.  I'm not incredibly smart or anything, but they look to me for standards of goodness.

If I go to the clergy with these thoughts, I'm afraid I'm only going to get more of the same.  That's why I'm posting here.  I could use a little unbiased encouragement, maybe, from someone who has been through the same thing.

I know right where you stand because I was in the same position one year ago. I am still a somewhat closeted atheist. Hell, I even attend church and play on our worship team for goodness' sake! My wife is still a confident believer although her belief rests on absolutely no theology whatsoever. She wants to raise our two boys that way also,  which I have conceded to, for now. If I can offer any advice, it's to keep reading, keep learning and time will eventually dispel the last of your worries. Even though my indoctrination ran deep I now have almost complete confidence that there is not a god. And if there is, let him/her change my mind. He/she would know what it would take. 

[Randy Carson]

I'm happy to have a civil discussion. Rather than take over your thread however, which is really about your apparent conversion to atheism, post your question in the "Ask a Catholic" (My thread) and everyone who wants to ignore the conversation can do so more easily.

Sound good?

One point, I'm having one of these "quiet conversations" there with Neimenovic, too, but it shouldn't be to difficult to keep the two trains of thought separated.

It doesn't sound good. I'm not going to "ask a Catholic", because, as I've said twice previously, it would be doing more of the same.  I'd like to ask you as a person, who might be reaching to help me in this rough time I'm having from the personal perspective of a Catholic.  However, you've just been copy/pasting catechism.  Going on over to "Ask a Catholic" means I need Catholicism to explain to me all that I already know.  I've spent years reading Catholic literature and I find Catholicisms answers to be inadequate.  If you have a convincing argument (outside of the catechism), then yes... I'm ready to be convinced.

I used to use this conversion / deconversion / reversion argument too.  If the truth were really written in our hearts, why is it so hard to find?  Given enough education, a person can easily take Christianity off like a t-shirt.  Though I recognize each person is different, I know enough about Christianity and just enough about the universe to abandoned the attempt of faith.

If you come to me as a person, I'll gladly be open to convincing.  If you just recite catechism, as if I hadn't read it (or papal bulls, or the Early Church Fathers, or respected Bishops of post modern Christianity, or apologists, or anthropologists, or biologists, or physicists, etc)... I'll be offended.  I'm sure you can understand that.  One of our greatest achievements as a species is empathy (no seriously, it really is), surely you have some of that... enough to see that regurgitating catechism to a catholic with answers that don't exist within it... is offensive because it lacks empathy, the crowning achievement of our species that lead to us becoming so much more than the other animals.

Wouldn't it depend on the question?

I might quote a chunk of the Catechism if someone asked me a doctrinal question. I might give you my opinion if you ask what I think of Pope Francis.

Tell you what, I promise not to quote the Catechism in any of our exchange. I might still offer a thoroughly Catholic response to a question (and why wouldn't I if the question requires it), but I won't beat you over the head with encyclicals, etc.

Deal?

You talk. I'll listen for starters.

[Spacetime]

Wouldn't it depend on the question?

I might quote a chunk of the Catechism if someone asked me a doctrinal question. I might give you my opinion if you ask what I think of Pope Francis.

Tell you what, I promise not to quote the Catechism in any of our exchange. I might still offer a thoroughly Catholic response to a question (and why wouldn't I if the question requires it), but I won't beat you over the head with encyclicals, etc.

Deal?

You talk. I'll listen for starters.

Very well... I'll go to this then...

Let me start with how I would talk to someone in my own Church if we were having fellowship over beers following liturgy (as men often do at my Church);

The bible mentions belief as though it were a choice. I've found that my Christian identity is wholly wrapped up in trying (desperately) to believe, when I simply have not been convinced. A positive affirmation of belief "on" Christ Jesus would be a lie in my case... something that very doctrine prohibits. What I do believe is that I've made tremendous effort in trying to believe, by investigating the faith. Without deconstructing this paragraph, please address this over all point; If belief is a choice and there is evidence that this belief is convincing and rational, why hasn't this evidence rationally convinced me to believe? Especially when I'm not ignorant to it... down to its most specific points.

---

I know right where you stand because I was in the same position one year ago. I am still a somewhat closeted atheist. Hell, I even attend church and play on our worship team for goodness' sake! My wife is still a confident believer although her belief rests on absolutely no theology whatsoever. She wants to raise our two boys that way also,  which I have conceded to, for now. If I can offer any advice, it's to keep reading, keep learning and time will eventually dispel the last of your worries. Even though my indoctrination ran deep I now have almost complete confidence that there is not a god. And if there is, let him/her change my mind. He/she would know what it would take. 

Yea, man. I even told my wife "If you want to continue going to church and praying as a family, I'm down. However, I need to live as a agnostic / deist openly in the house." She agreed. In fact, in the last few days that she's known this about me... we've had a much more open relationship than we did before.

Being a parent, I'm not going to let anyone preach hell fire to my children, absolutely never.

Thank you for your words of advice. I am taking them to heart.

[Randy Carson]

[quote='Randy Carson' pid='973085' dateline='1435181469']
Wouldn't it depend on the question?

I might quote a chunk of the Catechism if someone asked me a doctrinal question. I might give you my opinion if you ask what I think of Pope Francis.

Tell you what, I promise not to quote the Catechism in any of our exchange. I might still offer a thoroughly Catholic response to a question (and why wouldn't I if the question requires it), but I won't beat you over the head with encyclicals, etc.

Deal?

You talk. I'll listen for starters.

Very well... I'll go to this then...

Let me start with how I would talk to someone in my own Church if we were having fellowship over beers following liturgy (as men often do at my Church);

The bible mentions belief as though it were a choice. I've found that my Christian identity is wholly wrapped up in trying (desperately) to believe, when I simply have not been convinced. A positive affirmation of belief "on" Christ Jesus would be a lie in my case... something that very doctrine prohibits. What I do believe is that I've made tremendous effort in trying to believe, by investigating the faith. Without deconstructing this paragraph, please address this over all point; If belief is a choice and there is evidence that this belief is convincing and rational, why hasn't this evidence rationally convinced me to believe? Especially when I'm not ignorant to it... down to its most specific points.

I thought you might go with this...I was talking with my dad about your post just this morning, in fact.

I want to mull this over...not answer too quickly. Fair?

[Spacetime]

I thought you might go with this...I was talking with my dad about your post just this morning, in fact.

I want to mull this over...not answer too quickly. Fair?

Of course, bro. It isn't a race. Take your time.

[Randy Carson]

I thought you might go with this...I was talking with my dad about your post just this morning, in fact.

I want to mull this over...not answer too quickly. Fair?

Of course, bro.  It isn't a race.  Take your time.

Thank you.

[iburnwater]

As I started to investigate my own religion, I began to cast out doctrines like hell... because you have a very difficult problem with theodicy if you hold to it.  I then decided that the evil that occurs now is the most pressing issue if hell is out of the equation.  What use is my God if He doesn't intervene?  Therefore, God must not be a personal God.

I know the bible is not historically accurate, we can prove the documents are fables.  I know we have no evidence for the suspension of physical laws to allow for the possibility of miracles.  I know human biology doesn't allow for something like a virgin birth.

I just can't seem to give it up.  If I've cast out the doctrine of hell, you'd say I have nothing to fear.  I've drawn out all that I cannot hold to if I am going to hold to that which is true, there's nothing left.  Absolutely nothing.  My fear is entirely irrational.

My own Grandmother threatened me with hell.  A girl I liked in high school... I asked her "So if I don't believe in Jesus, but am a good person, I'm still going to go to hell?"  When she said "I'm sorry, but yes."  I literally burst into tears in art class.

Perhaps it's those experiences that still hold me hostage to the Church.  My Grandmother sends my children books that I have to go through to weed out the crazy shit.  I'm embarrassed and ashamed to tell this story, but my eldest boy toasted the end of the world in front of my atheist parents during their last visit before supper.  The reaction he got sent him into tears.  I, of course, comforted him.  I teach my children that there is no hell, but then he clings to the return of Christ when this loving God comes back to destroy the Earth?

It's all complete and utter bullshit.  But I'm so f'ing scared to denounce it for my children's sake.  I am programmed to not say anything bad about Christ.  I literally can't... and I've even tried.  I can even tell you honestly that I love Christ (seriously, no joke).  But when I look at these things critically, there's nothing left for me to hold on to.

Church has been so good for my wife and children, though.  I'm afraid of what my wife will think of me.  I'm afraid I would be taking something good away from them if I am openly agnostic.  I'm not incredibly smart or anything, but they look to me for standards of goodness.

If I go to the clergy with these thoughts, I'm afraid I'm only going to get more of the same.  That's why I'm posting here.  I could use a little unbiased encouragement, maybe, from someone who has been through the same thing.

I have been an atheist for two years now.  Prior to that I was agnostic while I was making my transition from christianity to atheism.  I struggled with the concept of hell for awhile while making my transition to atheism.  It is very hard to let go of that fear when you have been brainwashed for so long.  Elaine Pagels book, Origin of Satan, is a good place to start.  It is helpful to see where these myths came from and how they manifested into what they currently are re: hell and Satan.  I would also recommend Bart Ehrman's book The Bible: A Historical and Literary Introduction.  People from biblical times used to believe that the sun past through the underworld (i.e. hell).  This is the mindset of the people you are dealing with in terms of mythos.

[Spacetime]

I have been an atheist for two years now.  Prior to that I was agnostic while I was making my transition from christianity to atheism.  I struggled with the concept of hell for awhile while making my transition to atheism.  It is very hard to let go of that fear when you have been brainwashed for so long.  Elaine Pagels book, Origin of Satan, is a good place to start.  It is helpful to see where these myths came from and how they manifested into what they currently are re: hell and Satan.  I would also recommend Bart Ehrman's book The Bible: A Historical and Literary Introduction.  People from biblical times used to believe that the sun past through the underworld (i.e. hell).  This is the mindset of the people you are dealing with in terms of mythos.

Thanks for the recommendations. I'll check out Pagels book. I've got several of Ehrman's on the way too.

I think it was a video of the discussion between the "four horsemen of atheism" wherein they discussed the possibility that the human mind evolved with this innate need to project things on the unknown to find comfort. Either way, Christianity is so full of logical fallacy that the more I learned, the less I believed. I took the Apostles Creed and cut it down to what I could marginally believe as a statement of "faith"....

"I believe in the possibility of a God and all things measurable.
And in most of what Christ said.
He was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried."

That pretty much does it. Now I can't even say the profession of faith, which is irony because I spent months reading about the filioque. I don't like to look at it as time wasted, but if you added up all the hours... /hand to head/ I just estimated a low ball estimate on my phone's calculator. Never mind, it was a total waste.

Thanks for your encouragement though!

[robvalue]

Tonechase: Indeed, I believe the "existence" of all the specific comic book style gods relies almost entirely on indoctrination. If people stopped hammering young, vulnerable minds with mythical gibberish presented as fact, they would reach the age of reason and would be able to make an unbiased, informed decision for themselves. And I think we know what that would be, on the whole. Present someone with developed critical thinking and no presuppositions the bible or the Quran, and (with no coercion) they will most likely reject it as silly stories. So without this oral myth that these books actually have any authority, it wouldn't matter that they exist or what they say any more than Harry Potter does.

People on some level must know this, since they continue to bombard their children as soon as they possibly can in order to make sure this crap sticks. Take away a couple of generations of indoctrination, and I'd give you 100-1 that Yahweh and Allah would fade into obscurity.

FAITH = Forever Actively Indoctrinating The Helpless