Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?

[Catholic_Lady]

From one perspective he doesn't need it and there is no loss if no one ever worshipped him.
From another perspective, he needs to try to get people to worship him because not doing so would contradict foundational morality of his essence and would be injustice on his part.

Yes, this is well said. I would agree with this.

[SteveII]

Because you asked "why" several times. "What is God's purpose" is exactly the answer to the question "why". 

God's purpose was not in question, with foreknowledge he created a world of sin and pain, that was his plan.

You are confusing the term purpose with a logical consequence of putting that purpose into action. These are two very different things.  That's like saying the purpose of the North in the civil war was to kill Southerners. 

Not so fast. Your OP specifically said "why he allowed people to be born who had not even existed before procreation to enter a world of suffering?". Shifting your "suffering" window to include hell weakens you point significantly. If hell is a result of free actions and God does not want anyone to go there, then it is a consequence of a bad choice, not the original purpose.

The world of suffering includes hell, that was god's plan from the beginning after all the amount of time sinners are going to spend on earth is dwarfed to insignificance by the time spent in hell (forever).

And of course it was gods original purpose he cannot be all knowing and at the same time do something that is not his original purpose, that's just silly and contradictory.  

Again, you confuse purpose with a consequence and then you misunderstand the consequence. 
  
No doctrine exists in isolation. The doctrine of hell is no exception. The doctrine starts with the justice/holiness of God. God created us with free will. It is an ability that God created us with because it seems thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creature seems to be the pinnacle of anything anyone could ever create--including God.

This is a two-edged sword. Because of God's justice/holiness, he cannot have a relationship with something not holy. This doctrine is not a choice that God made for things to be this way--it is a necessary (as in couldn't have been any other way) condition of being perfectly just and perfectly holy. Free will, with all of the benefits I listed above will always result in us choosing to sin and results in a separation that must be repaired.

The repair necessary could only come from the God side of the equation. God could always forgive sins. They were not paid for (slate wiped clean as if they never existed) until the Cross. Just like you can forgive someone that wrongs you--but forgiving does not remove the consequences of the action. The Cross removed the consequences (at least the eternal ones--i.e. the gulf between us and God's justice and holiness) of sin to those who freely accept it.

So, what is hell? It is my view that the immaterial soul is the thing going to hell--which would be an immaterial place/existence/experience. I believe that while it is a place of torment, one is not eternally tortured by some overlord doing things to you. We are talking about souls and NOT bodies. Flames and teeth are material and would have no effect on the immaterial so all the lake of fire/weeping and gnashing of teeth references seem to be metaphors. The pain is spiritual and stems from the complete separation from God--a condition that obviously has a profound effect on the immaterial soul.

So, God does not sentence you to hell. It is an automatic consequence for not freely choosing the option provided.

Then god created us like that, making judging us for those traits a nonsense

With free will?? Yes, he did. You cannot have love or true worship without fee will. Your point would only be persuasive if we could not avoid judgement. We can, so your objection is weak from a logic standpoint. 

We can't avoid judgement. (according to the bible), what you mean is we can choose to obey, but what is the value of choosing to obey if we can't choose any other without punishment.

And frankly god is doing a very poor job of promoting the good side of obeying him, when we see what evil the church has done, one would have thought that at the very least he would keep his own in check.

See above explanation of hell. Evil people have done in the name of religion is not the religion's fault. It is people's fault. Free will and all. 

Well yes, absolutely but free will under duress of hell is not really free will at all.

Again, that might be a good point if that was the only reason for becoming a Christian. It is clearly not, so it is not a very strong point either.

But still duress

 
That is simply not so. Knowledge of a consequence for disobedience in no way entails you obeyed because of the consequence. That is bad reasoning. 

Question: "What is the purpose of man, according to the Bible?"

Answer: The Bible makes it abundantly clear that God created man and that He created him for His glory (). Therefore, the ultimate purpose of man, according to the Bible, is simply to glorify God.

A harder question to answer, perhaps, is what does it look like to glorify God? In , we’re told to worship God with gladness and “know that the Lord is God. It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, the sheep of his pasture.” Part of what it looks like to glorify God is to acknowledge who God is (our Creator, for starters) and to praise and worship Him as such.

We fulfill our purpose of glorifying God also by living our lives in relationship and faithful service to Him (1 Samuel 12:24; John 17:4). Since God created man in His image (Genesis 1:26–27), man’s purpose cannot be fulfilled apart from Him. King Solomon tried living for his own pleasure, yet at the end of his life he concluded that the only worthwhile life is one of honor and obedience to God ().

In our fallen state, sin separates us from God and makes it impossible to glorify Him on our own. But through Jesus Christ’s sacrifice, our relationship with God is reconciled—our sin is forgiven and no longer creates a barrier between God and us ().

Interestingly, we are able to glorify God because He gave us glory first. David writes in Psalm 8:4–6, “What is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them? You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor. You made them rulers over the works of your hands; you put everything under their feet.” (This is also repeated in Hebrews 2:6–8.) This verse reveals another purpose that God has given man: dominion over the earth (). Again, though, this can only be properly fulfilled through a right relationship with God.

The more we get to know our Creator and the more we love Him (Matthew 22:37–38), the better we understand who we are and what our purpose is. We were created to bring Him glory. God has unique plans and purposes for each person (Psalm 139:13–16), but we can know that, whatever those plans look like, they will ultimately result in His glory (Proverbs 3:6; 1 Corinthians 10:31).  https://www.gotquestions.org/purpose-of-man.html

None of that answers my question, it's just a babble of various scripture references and links along with what the author thinks. 

It does however say that he has a plan for everyone (some of which will include going to hell), so those destined for hell are planned to do so, so why then do you believe in free will ?

Your knowledge of Christianity has huge holes in it. How about take the time to learn something about the very thing you started a thread over to point out concerning what you perceived to be the logical problems with it. It is clear from this article that God's purpose is NOT suffering and goes into some detail about what it really is. 

Regarding your last statement, it is not compatible with free will. In addition, it is God's wish that none go to hell:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
"The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9)

[The Grand Nudger]

There appears to be a huge disparity between what your god wants, and what happens.  In human beings we call this limitation, in gods..it could be nothing other than incompetence.

I know..I know..."free will"....well, my "free will" doesn't stop other people from getting what they want, even getting what they want out of me. So, again, incompetence.

When will your god learn what human children learn by the age of 3?

Now, personally, if I were contemplating the answer to the question of how to affect salvation for all mankind....."kill a jew" would be pretty low on my list of solutions. Hell, it doesn't seem to have worked at any rate.

God, in his wisdom...strikes out again.

[Harry Nevis]

But it isn't free willed people sending anyone to be tortured neither did free willed people create hell, the bottom line is god knew what would happen but went ahead anyway.

Yes, he went ahead knowing that those who love him would get eternal life, and those who hate or ignore him would get judgment and hell. Yet again, foregoing creation due to that knowledge would be favoring the enemies over the friends, which is absurd.

How about those who, using their "god-given" talents in logic, reason and evidence, see no validity to the bible stories?  That's not hating, ignoring or denying god, it's using the tools that work in every other part of life.

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With free will?? Yes, he did. You cannot have love or true worship without fee will. Your point would only be persuasive if we could not avoid judgement. We can, so your objection is weak from a logic standpoint. 

Why does god need love or worship?

Who said He "needs" it?

Ok, why does he require it?

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Someone who creates people just to be put in a place of torture is simply not compatible with a loving god. These are a perfect example of how religion twists peoples mind from the obvious to the implausible.

It's compatible with a righteous and just god. God is both just and loving. Love does not require one to ignore sin. But, in god's love, he offers salvation which he earned for us himself. If you don't want that salvation, you don't have to take it.
[/quote]

So, "just" is eternal torture for not being able to make oneself believe something?  Different than what we call just.
And his "love" is conditional on being worshipped, and, although he "loves" us, is fine with eternal torture.  Again, different from what we call "love".
And "righteous" is whatever he wants to, as that would be the definition of righteous.

How someone can call this creature good, loving and just is beyond reason.

[SteveII]

Actually this short Q&A addresses the point of why worship compared to just knowledge of God...

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings...-love-god/

[Harry Nevis]

From one perspective he doesn't need it and there is no loss if no one ever worshipped him.
From another perspective, he needs to try to get people to worship him because not doing so would contradict foundational morality of his essence and would be injustice on his part.
God is the only one who knew possible beings and their nature and potentials before come to being,  he is the only one who can bring them about and give them a worthy goal.
If he didn't create us for himself and for worship, if anything was not created for that goal, God would break foundations of his love and justice, and grace and perception.
So while it's true God doesn't need our worship, he needs to be good more than anything else. Everything including himself would cease to exist if he chose to be evil.
God is not destructive, he is not evil, he chooses to be good, he chooses to create constantly, choosing to be good.
But he needs to do that in one sense out of love. Ofcourse worshipping him doesn't increase him or benefit him in any way from another perspective, so it is our loss if we don't.  But there is no being more grieved at the injustice of people than God. 
Satan when he held on to himself, withdrew from reason and light, to darkness and ignorance. That is why he seeks to spread chaos, destruction, and loss.
I know you meant what you meant from the right perspective, but I wanted to manifest this other perspective that is important to recall as well.

Making it up as you go along, huh?  The twists and turns to justify your choices are dizzying.

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From one perspective he doesn't need it and there is no loss if no one ever worshipped him.
From another perspective, he needs to try to get people to worship him because not doing so would contradict foundational morality of his essence and would be injustice on his part.

Yes, this is well said. I would agree with this.

"contradict foundational morality of his essence"?! Word salad.

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[quote='SteveII' pid='1652575' dateline='1510071720']

That is simply not so. Knowledge of a consequence for disobedience in no way entails you obeyed because of the consequence. That is bad reasoning. 

That is simply bullshit. People do this all the time, and many christians will admit to it.

[SteveII]

That is simply not so. Knowledge of a consequence for disobedience in no way entails you obeyed because of the consequence. That is bad reasoning. 

That is simply bullshit. People do this all the time, and many christians will admit to it.

You need to look up the word entail.

[possibletarian]

Your knowledge of Christianity has huge holes in it. How about take the time to learn something about the very thing you started a thread over to point out concerning what you perceived to be the logical problems with it. It is clear from this article that God's purpose is NOT suffering and goes into some detail about what it really is. 

Regarding your last statement, it is not compatible with free will. In addition, it is God's wish that none go to hell:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
"The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9)

Yes, yes we don't understand, we hear you. though I'm not so sure the holes are as big as you think they are, not believing a book that has talking snakes, people who's strength comes from long hair, talking donkeys and people walking on water is not the same as not knowing what is in there.

It's true I don't understand Christianity, at least not any more i used to think i did and it's the same accusation i would throw unbelievers way, but once you see it for the sham it is and you begin clearly to see its just made up and really there is absolutely no evidence for it's claims then yes, you loose that understanding because you can no longer have the will or yearning to continually go through the excruciating mental gymnastics to reconcile it with reality.

How can it be god's will that not all perish and come to knowledge of truth, but at the same time knowingly create a world where his will cannot come into being.  Not only that but knowingly and wilfully created a world where children get abused, murders, etc, put simply Yahweh is incapable of putting his will into action. If you were some kind of Universe supervisor looking for a local god to create a world of where humans could live in happiness, and you saw Yahweh's C.V, would you employ him?

Given that god could not get wants without creating a world with what you call free will and a sinful world at the same time, we are not talking about someone who happen to come across circumstances beyond their control, but a god who can control everything.


This is what religion (of which Christianity is one of many) does to peoples heads, they accept a logic no rational person would on this subject, further to that they call it love.
And almost all the rational around this rests on what you call free will, what is 'free will' to you, and why are you so convinced we actually have it ?

[Abaddon_ire]

According to the bible, god is neither omniscient, nor omnipotent nor omnipresent. This is not subject to interpretation, the bible states it flat out.

The addition of the tri-omni-twaddle is something later added or retconned and on that score the bible has some very strict things to say about the punishment for retconning.

 If were stated in the Bible you would have given us books, chapters and verses. Just where are those things the Bible says about retconning.

GC

Oh. My apologies, I thought you had actually read the bible.

Gen. 3 nails the omniscience and omnipresence

Judges 1:19 nails the omnipotence part.

Rev. 22:18-19, Deu 4:1-2 and Pro 30:5-6 for the retconning prohibition.

[Drich]

That number more accurately represents the people that do....assuming that your god isn;t forgotten sometime between now and armageddon, like the rest have been.  

I believe you are mistaken as to how many people actually believe as you do. Either way the number I got (1/3) is the number of angels the left with satan. as that was I believe the reason for giving us the oppertuity to choose for ourselves. As the angels were not given a choice but made to simply serve.

God doesn't seem to be interested in fairness, I don;t know why he;d choke on the issue of annihilating his creation.  He's done it before, he'll do it again.

the word fair is a subjective term. to the one being punished nothing is ever fair. However to God far is an absolute standard, your in ablity to see or identify God's standard of fairness will change once he washes your eyes of the B/S you keep them covered in.

You mean, like those rubes jesus bullied into believing by his presence?  God sure does change his mind about how o do this whole god thing alot...that or you don't have the slightest clue wtf you're talking about.  50/50.  

your the short sighted one... How many times have we had the argument as to what is needed for God to "bully into believing?" There is always a A/S/K element even if it does not follow traditional church lines.

Oh that's right, that one time god turned you into a newt.... and then you got better.  I guess you can;t be bothered to remember all the whoppers you've told, but -waaaay- back in the day you told us that you came to god when he came to you...through the radio......somehow, since then..the story's morphed into a trip to hell and back.   

God did help me through a radio ministry well after my initial conversion. I have 25+ years of daily experiences with God and all are crystal clear and I can indeed put it all into a perspective time line. When I was judged I was just out of high school, and my judgement lead me to except an invitation to church by my sister's hot friend. I wanted to know the truth and it so happen God packaged it into a pretty girl, and had me follow her. I then spent 10 years at that church, till I met that pretty girl's older friend who use to goto that church before I did. We got married. found out she was a heroin addict while we were dating, thought she was recovered, found out she was not. went though 7 years of hell. Through that 7 years of my marriage I received daily direction from God through several but one radio ministry in particular. Now if you were to go back and look That is what my "communication with God looked like back then." it has since progressed.

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Why did God allow people to born after the fall?


He likes watching them being conceived ??

Some are born to serve while the others serve as trials, or opportunity to serve.