Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?

[Godscreated]

That doesn't even qualify for an answer, especially since it's been discussed many many times before.

GC

Of course it qualifies as an answer. The fact we miscarry is just another example of what a shitty designer God must be. And since God is defined as a PERFECT designer but the evidence is that he is NOT, then, he doesn't exist.

 
  I said your post did not qualify for an answer. You misread and understood what I posted so how is it I'm to expect you to be able to know what the Bible says, you do not know so how can you even have an opinion on it that means anything.

GC

[The Grand Nudger]

Your standards for qualification are well known.

[Godscreated]

No the point can't be moot, you made an accusation and need to stand behind it with some sort of proof, I take it this is a dodge though. I never said that God didn't know what would happen, God is eternal (omnipresent) and has lived through all eternity, He has no beginning and no end and has always known all things. God being eternal means He has existed in all times and places all the time.

According to the bible, god is neither omniscient, nor omnipotent nor omnipresent. This is not subject to interpretation, the bible states it flat out.

The addition of the tri-omni-twaddle is something later added or retconned and on that score the bible has some very strict things to say about the punishment for retconning.

 If were stated in the Bible you would have given us books, chapters and verses. Just where are those things the Bible says about retconning.

GC

[John V]

What is sad is that you believe that you are heading for an eternal existence somewhere.

Why is that sad? My life here and now seems better than those of most of the atheists here.

What do you envisage this existence to be like? Do you not think that an eternal existence would be torture to endure? Do you think you get to opt out after 500,000 years when the boredom becomes too much for you, or are you stuck with it?

No, I have no fear of boredom.

[Cod]

What is sad is that you believe that you are heading for an eternal existence somewhere.

Why is that sad? My life here and now seems better than those of most of the atheists here.

What do you envisage this existence to be like? Do you not think that an eternal existence would be torture to endure? Do you think you get to opt out after 500,000 years when the boredom becomes too much for you, or are you stuck with it?

No, I have no fear of boredom.

Do you have anything to say about what you are expecting this afterlife to be like? I need to know that if I accept Jesus he's going to keep me occupied.

[John V]

But it isn't free willed people sending anyone to be tortured neither did free willed people create hell, the bottom line is god knew what would happen but went ahead anyway.

Yes, he went ahead knowing that those who love him would get eternal life, and those who hate or ignore him would get judgment and hell. Yet again, foregoing creation due to that knowledge would be favoring the enemies over the friends, which is absurd.

Oh course they were not, anyone who disobeyed was stoned, hardly fruitful ground for free will, I'm really surprised you don't know this.
When I say to my daughter she has a few choices I don't give her one that results in a painful death, and then call it a free and fair choice. It constantly amazes me how theists minds are so easily twisted like this.

Ex 19
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him.
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.

But yet you state you are happy with people after the rapture not getting a choice, even those who would believe.

Not sure what you mean by "after the rapture." More ignorance. You really mean after the thousand year reign. And again, it's God's creation, it's his choice to make the cutoff wherever he pleases. As noted, the Bible says that God is longsuffering concerning sin, i.e. it pains him to see the sin in this world. I don't expect him to go through that forever, and I'm grateful that he waited long enough for my existence.

He does not have any responsibilities if he is truly what we call a god and can do whatever he wants, to have responsibilities you have to have someone to be responsible to.

So you're admitting the responsibility argument was a straw man.

the point being that eternal torture is such an arbitrary petty thing to do it's clearly not a god worth following puts him in the same league as Allah.

Your opinion is noted. Again, you make this assertion without any reasoning behind it.

But it was his desire to create people who would go to hell and be tortured for eternity,

No, you gave verses yourself showing that wasn't his desire.

it was his plan from the beginning, so yes even with free will god gets all he desires.  There is a clear contradiction in scripture, it is insane to implement a plan you know will result in hell, if it's your desire to not have anyone go to hell.

Not if people going to hell is a necessary consequence of fulfilling the desire of having eternal fellowship with people in heaven. You're just trying a different angle at the same bad argument that God should care more about the fate of those who hate him, than those who love him. THAT's insanity.

For instance would you stone your child for disobeying you, if it meant disobeying god if you didn't ?

Probably not. My faith is weak just like Israel's. Plus you don't really understand the verse you're referencing.

If there is a purpose for the unsaved, then being unsaved is all part of god's plan, so hell is also a part of gods plan, but that's the point does that make sense when god wishes all men to be saved ?

Again, by allowing free will, a consequence is that God doesn't get his every desire.

The Romans 9 passage is about Israel, not the unsaved per-say. but that god allowed the gentiles in to make Israel jealous.  But then claims all Israel will be saved.  The bottom line is there is no justification at all other than a brainwashing to believe so.

No, the passage I referenced is about saved v. not. Note v24: "24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Someone who creates people just to be put in a place of torture is simply not compatible with a loving god. These are a perfect example of how religion twists peoples mind from the obvious to the implausible.

It's compatible with a righteous and just god. God is both just and loving. Love does not require one to ignore sin. But, in god's love, he offers salvation which he earned for us himself. If you don't want that salvation, you don't have to take it.

[Catholic_Lady]

My guess would be because He saw that ultimately whatever goodness came from allowing humans to exist would far outweigh the suffering. If this weren't the case, I assume He wouldn't have done it.

What amount of good would there have to be to outweigh the suffering ? I mean to a god who could presumably make the world the way he wanted it.
It's not a question i expect you to know a clear answer too, after all I don't know what the answer to that would like either.

I don't know. I haven't seen the entire existence of humanity on earth and their existence in eternity, so impossible to say.

---

Question 2
If there is some kind  of argument that there has to be a number god has to reach, then where are these spirits/souls before they are born into human bodies ?  Do you perhaps believe in some kind of re-incarnation, or souls waiting for an incarnation ?

I'm not sure what you are talking about with this "numbers" thing. In my religion, we believe that souls don't exist prior to a person being conceived. They begin existing at that moment. No, I do not believe in reincarnation or souls waiting to be incarnated.

Well does not bible talk about in Romans 11:25 '
Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.' And then I assume it will go back to Israel again, but this time they will see the truth.

And souls not even existing till conception (which is pretty much what i thought most Christians believed) makes me wonder why god didn't stop procreation then.

Im not familiar with that. Unfortunately Catholics aren't too well versed on the bible bc the Church interprets it for us, so we get lazy about reading it. We don't have anything official to say about that particular issue you brought up with the numbers. probably because it isn't important in the grand scheme of things. The world will end someday, that's all we need to know. How or when isn't important to a theological standpoint.

As to your question, as I said: I would assume because He saw that ultimately the existence of humans would be a net good.

[Harry Nevis]

[quote='SteveII' pid='1652100' dateline='1510005784']

With free will?? Yes, he did. You cannot have love or true worship without fee will. Your point would only be persuasive if we could not avoid judgement. We can, so your objection is weak from a logic standpoint. 

[quote]

Why does god need love or worship?

[Catholic_Lady]

[quote="Harry Nevis" pid='1652446' dateline='1510061208']
[quote='SteveII' pid='1652100' dateline='1510005784']

With free will?? Yes, he did. You cannot have love or true worship without fee will. Your point would only be persuasive if we could not avoid judgement. We can, so your objection is weak from a logic standpoint. 

Why does god need love or worship?

Who said He "needs" it?

[Mystic]

With free will?? Yes, he did. You cannot have love or true worship without fee will. Your point would only be persuasive if we could not avoid judgement. We can, so your objection is weak from a logic standpoint. 

Why does god need love or worship?

Who said He "needs" it?

From one perspective he doesn't need it and there is no loss if no one ever worshipped him.
From another perspective, he needs to try to get people to worship him because not doing so would contradict foundational morality of his essence and would be injustice on his part.
God is the only one who knew possible beings and their nature and potentials before come to being,  he is the only one who can bring them about and give them a worthy goal.
If he didn't create us for himself and for worship, if anything was not created for that goal, God would break foundations of his love and justice, and grace and perception.
So while it's true God doesn't need our worship, he needs to be good more than anything else. Everything including himself would cease to exist if he chose to be evil.
God is not destructive, he is not evil, he chooses to be good, he chooses to create constantly, choosing to be good.
But he needs to do that in one sense out of love. Ofcourse worshipping him doesn't increase him or benefit him in any way from another perspective, so it is our loss if we don't.  But there is no being more grieved at the injustice of people than God. 
Satan when he held on to himself, withdrew from reason and light, to darkness and ignorance. That is why he seeks to spread chaos, destruction, and loss.
I know you meant what you meant from the right perspective, but I wanted to manifest this other perspective that is important to recall as well.