(July 23, 2015 at 12:29 pm)robvalue Wrote: What we call "the sun" is just a load of stuff, we label it as a group for convenience. Just because we label it as such, it doesn't become its own object in its own right. It's an abstract concept. It is made up of parts which already existed in other forms. At some point we look at it and go, "Ah! We'll call that lot of stuff the sun".
This is not the same as things coming out of nowhere, like you're trying to imply the universe has to.
But when I making the argument, I'm not assuming what you are stating is false. I am showing by conclusion the universe began to exist since it's subject to change. I'm not arguing the sun appeared out of nothing, I am arguing the sun didn't always exist as in what we call the sun wasn't always there, not that what consists of the substance of the sun didn't originate from something that was always there...the latter is proven by conclusion but not assumed.
I think your argument comes down to affirming the conclusion, strawmanning the angle of the statements made, and not dealing with the argument at hand.
