How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard

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How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard

Ronkonkoma Offline

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#128

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard

September 7, 2015 at 4:41 am (This post was last modified: September 7, 2015 at 4:44 am by Ronkonkoma.)

(July 22, 2015 at 8:13 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Why bother with complex explanations on how we know so little about the universe that we can't make too broad assumptions when you can simply counter it with some really simple questions?

The argument from causation, first cause or, as it is frequently called by sophisticated theologians, the cosmological argument, usually consists in the following two premises and conclusion:

1 - Everything that exists has or needs a cause

2 - The universe began to exist

3 - Therefore, the universe needs a cause

From the conclusion theists usually deduce that the only possible cause to the universe and all existence is god, given the amount of supernatural and unimaginable power required to create or just set in motion the events that lead to the creation of life, matter and our beautiful ability to breathe oxygen.

Here's how to refute it without needing to know any science at all:

Atheist asks ---> If everything that exists has or needs a cause, then god, whichever we are talking about, needs a cause as well. What caused god?

Theists replies --> God doesn't need a cause because he was always there, he is infinite, timeless, and exists outside of time and space - Hence only him could have caused the events that lead to the creation of the universe as we know it

Atheist asks - Then apparently not everything needs a cause, so why does the universe need one if god doesn't? I rest my case (And premise 1 is false)

TL;DR -----> If god doesn't need a cause then why the fuck does the universe need one? Answer - Special pleading.

sure Boss, maybe we need to fine-tune the argument a little to say:
1. everything in time had to have a beginning because time itself had a beginning (this is proven)
2. if something had a beginning, it needs to have had a cause
3. anything outside of time needs to have no beginning, and there fore no cause

only things in space and time need to have a cause, because they need too have a beginning by definition

thanks for listening.

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How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Dystopia - July 22, 2015 at 8:13 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Minimalist - July 22, 2015 at 8:23 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Dystopia - July 22, 2015 at 8:28 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Minimalist - July 22, 2015 at 10:41 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Anomalocaris - August 2, 2015 at 11:57 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Cephus - July 22, 2015 at 9:02 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Magilla - July 22, 2015 at 10:19 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Cephus - July 23, 2015 at 2:58 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Dystopia - July 23, 2015 at 11:32 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Cephus - July 23, 2015 at 3:00 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by The Valkyrie - July 22, 2015 at 9:08 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Alex K - July 22, 2015 at 9:39 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by ignoramus - July 22, 2015 at 9:47 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 5:37 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Iroscato - July 23, 2015 at 5:41 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Simon Moon - July 23, 2015 at 9:05 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - September 19, 2015 at 3:12 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Losty - September 19, 2015 at 4:24 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - September 19, 2015 at 9:09 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Losty - September 19, 2015 at 9:16 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - September 19, 2015 at 9:50 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Esquilax - September 20, 2015 at 2:40 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by houseofcantor - September 21, 2015 at 6:27 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by ignoramus - July 23, 2015 at 5:40 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Tonus - July 23, 2015 at 7:10 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Longhorn - July 23, 2015 at 7:14 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - July 23, 2015 at 7:32 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 10:23 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Tonus - July 23, 2015 at 11:56 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 12:04 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Tonus - July 23, 2015 at 1:03 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 1:13 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Tonus - July 23, 2015 at 1:27 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Angrboda - July 26, 2015 at 8:17 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 3, 2015 at 9:50 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Angrboda - August 3, 2015 at 9:43 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 5, 2015 at 10:25 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Dystopia - July 23, 2015 at 11:34 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - July 23, 2015 at 11:36 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by JesusHChrist - July 23, 2015 at 11:42 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - July 23, 2015 at 11:43 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - July 23, 2015 at 12:02 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - July 23, 2015 at 12:05 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 12:19 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - July 23, 2015 at 12:21 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 12:23 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Grandizer - September 7, 2015 at 4:21 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by houseofcantor - September 21, 2015 at 6:59 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - July 23, 2015 at 12:25 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 12:27 pm

How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by KUSA - July 23, 2015 at 12:27 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - July 23, 2015 at 12:29 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 12:33 pm

How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by KUSA - July 23, 2015 at 12:30 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 12:36 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by JesusHChrist - July 23, 2015 at 12:34 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 12:40 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by JesusHChrist - July 23, 2015 at 12:44 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 12:52 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Alex K - July 23, 2015 at 1:23 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by JuliaL - July 23, 2015 at 1:24 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - July 23, 2015 at 12:37 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Iroscato - July 23, 2015 at 12:49 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - July 23, 2015 at 12:50 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - July 24, 2015 at 1:07 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Brian37 - July 23, 2015 at 1:26 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by JuliaL - July 23, 2015 at 1:36 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 1:30 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by JuliaL - July 23, 2015 at 1:42 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Alex K - July 23, 2015 at 1:33 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 1:35 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Alex K - July 23, 2015 at 1:45 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Alex K - July 24, 2015 at 10:44 am

How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by KUSA - July 23, 2015 at 2:27 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 2:41 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Esquilax - July 23, 2015 at 3:13 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 7:29 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Esquilax - July 23, 2015 at 8:57 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - July 23, 2015 at 2:42 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Brian37 - July 23, 2015 at 3:00 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Dystopia - July 24, 2015 at 4:59 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Brian37 - July 25, 2015 at 1:02 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - July 25, 2015 at 1:05 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Dystopia - July 25, 2015 at 8:30 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by snowtracks - July 26, 2015 at 7:45 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Alex K - July 27, 2015 at 1:47 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Anomalocaris - August 2, 2015 at 11:59 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by LostLocke - July 27, 2015 at 8:42 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Esquilax - July 27, 2015 at 12:46 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - July 27, 2015 at 8:46 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Brian37 - July 28, 2015 at 3:38 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by snowtracks - August 2, 2015 at 11:48 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 3, 2015 at 8:35 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Longhorn - August 3, 2015 at 8:43 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 3, 2015 at 9:39 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Longhorn - August 3, 2015 at 9:41 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 3, 2015 at 10:38 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Longhorn - August 3, 2015 at 10:43 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by JesusHChrist - August 3, 2015 at 10:49 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Cephus - August 3, 2015 at 12:53 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 3, 2015 at 1:46 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Cephus - August 3, 2015 at 7:57 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 3, 2015 at 8:07 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Cephus - August 3, 2015 at 9:18 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Alex K - August 3, 2015 at 10:32 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 3, 2015 at 10:33 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Aristocatt - August 3, 2015 at 10:35 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Aristocatt - August 3, 2015 at 8:55 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Longhorn - August 4, 2015 at 1:02 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - August 4, 2015 at 1:26 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Longhorn - August 6, 2015 at 2:39 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Pizza - August 6, 2015 at 3:15 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Cephus - August 6, 2015 at 2:25 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 6, 2015 at 2:53 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Esquilax - August 6, 2015 at 2:59 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Cephus - August 6, 2015 at 4:36 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by houseofcantor - September 21, 2015 at 7:21 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - September 21, 2015 at 8:35 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by houseofcantor - September 21, 2015 at 9:19 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 6, 2015 at 6:03 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Esquilax - August 6, 2015 at 10:19 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 8, 2015 at 1:32 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 6, 2015 at 6:08 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - August 6, 2015 at 2:29 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Longhorn - August 6, 2015 at 3:07 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 7, 2015 at 12:30 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Esquilax - August 7, 2015 at 1:23 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 7, 2015 at 4:26 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Pizza - August 7, 2015 at 1:25 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Longhorn - August 7, 2015 at 2:48 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - August 7, 2015 at 3:36 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by pocaracas - August 7, 2015 at 5:49 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - August 7, 2015 at 12:43 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Longhorn - August 7, 2015 at 1:05 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Lucanus - August 7, 2015 at 1:19 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by JesusHChrist - August 7, 2015 at 1:41 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by LastPoet - August 7, 2015 at 2:13 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by snowtracks - September 7, 2015 at 3:12 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 7, 2015 at 4:41 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Grandizer - September 7, 2015 at 4:44 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 7, 2015 at 4:48 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Grandizer - September 7, 2015 at 5:01 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Wyrd of Gawd - September 7, 2015 at 12:43 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Grandizer - September 8, 2015 at 3:37 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 9, 2015 at 2:37 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by pocaracas - September 9, 2015 at 5:18 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 9, 2015 at 5:40 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - September 9, 2015 at 5:33 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 10, 2015 at 3:25 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by TheRocketSurgeon - September 10, 2015 at 5:19 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 10, 2015 at 2:52 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by TheRocketSurgeon - September 10, 2015 at 3:32 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 10, 2015 at 4:38 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by pocaracas - September 10, 2015 at 5:45 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 10, 2015 at 1:33 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by LastPoet - September 10, 2015 at 5:51 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - September 10, 2015 at 7:02 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Alex K - September 10, 2015 at 7:19 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - September 10, 2015 at 7:22 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by TheRocketSurgeon - September 10, 2015 at 5:26 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 12, 2015 at 1:37 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 13, 2015 at 3:08 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by TheRocketSurgeon - September 13, 2015 at 6:16 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 14, 2015 at 1:28 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by strawberryBacteria - September 13, 2015 at 7:13 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by TheRocketSurgeon - September 13, 2015 at 2:33 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 13, 2015 at 11:08 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by strawberryBacteria - September 14, 2015 at 6:32 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 14, 2015 at 11:29 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Cephus - September 14, 2015 at 7:47 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Rhondazvous - September 19, 2015 at 5:12 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by TheRocketSurgeon - September 14, 2015 at 2:53 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by TheRocketSurgeon - September 14, 2015 at 5:18 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 19, 2015 at 2:55 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by TheRocketSurgeon - September 19, 2015 at 4:59 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Ronkonkoma - September 21, 2015 at 1:55 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Rhondazvous - September 19, 2015 at 4:21 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Rational AKD - September 19, 2015 at 4:43 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - September 20, 2015 at 8:57 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Esquilax - September 20, 2015 at 11:22 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - September 20, 2015 at 1:35 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Angrboda - September 20, 2015 at 12:13 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Neo-Scholastic - September 20, 2015 at 1:55 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Angrboda - September 20, 2015 at 6:17 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by TheRocketSurgeon - September 20, 2015 at 12:55 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Losty - September 20, 2015 at 12:56 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by TheRocketSurgeon - September 20, 2015 at 1:03 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Losty - September 20, 2015 at 1:29 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by TheRocketSurgeon - September 20, 2015 at 1:55 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by houseofcantor - September 21, 2015 at 6:51 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Losty - September 20, 2015 at 2:44 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Esquilax - September 20, 2015 at 2:52 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - September 20, 2015 at 9:53 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - September 20, 2015 at 11:42 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by Esquilax - September 20, 2015 at 12:33 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - September 20, 2015 at 1:41 pm

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - September 21, 2015 at 3:58 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - September 21, 2015 at 6:17 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - September 21, 2015 at 6:25 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - September 21, 2015 at 6:32 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - September 21, 2015 at 6:38 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - September 21, 2015 at 6:46 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - September 21, 2015 at 9:22 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - September 21, 2015 at 10:48 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by robvalue - September 21, 2015 at 10:54 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by MysticKnight - September 21, 2015 at 10:59 am

RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard - by The Grand Nudger - September 21, 2015 at 11:25 am

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