Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 11, 2025, 5:07 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Religion is a poor source of morality
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality
(October 7, 2015 at 5:14 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: You're overlaying a schema of utilitarianism on the trolley problem, that what is most moral is that which is most useful.  Besides the fact that this has nothing to do with what makes the trolley problem morally interesting, you're begging the question about what makes something more moral than another thing.  It is not objectively true that what is moral is determined by what is likely to produce the greatest good for the most people.  That's an assumption and one which is lacking support.  You can't just slip utilitarian ethics into the mix and presume you are talking objectively.  You've made a subjective choice about what moral goodness consists of.  I might just as well say that what is moral is that which produces the greatest happiness for women and women alone.  That's equally subjective a view of what makes something 'moral'.  You've committed Moore's naturalistic fallacy by identifying a fellow traveler of moral approval, utility, and relabeled it as your criterion of morality.

I think that's fair enough, and not something I'd considered when I posted initially, so thank you for that. However, I would suggest that moral systems, by virtue of the things that make them run, have certain requirements baked into any and all of them that essentially shackle them to utilitarian ethics in some respects. Morality requires moral actors, I don't think that's a controversial statement- inanimate objects cannot act, much less act on a moral continuum- and this carries with it specific issues that influence the success of a given ethical standard; any moral system that leads to the death of all the actors that practice it would inevitably collapse because, well, all the people willing to accept the propositions it makes will be dead. At that point it becomes moot, though I do recognize that this doesn't necessarily imply anything about the moral status of the system: perhaps it is most moral that people be dead, after all.

However, I don't see any form of rational argument that would lead to that, and I think rational support is the important thing here; any moral idea that lacks justification or evidence is simply arbitrary. Rationally speaking, since we recognize that moral systems concern themselves with the moral actors that move within them, and are exclusively the product of moral actors operating within an objective reality, I think there's an obvious argument to be made that such systems should concern themselves with the survival of those same actors. Utilitarian ethics are the best tool for that purpose, recognizing as I say this that we're imperfect beings and further, better suited ethical structures may exist.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Religion is a poor source of morality - by Cecelia - October 1, 2015 at 6:01 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by KevinM1 - October 1, 2015 at 7:11 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Cecelia - October 1, 2015 at 7:22 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Godschild - October 2, 2015 at 1:18 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Nay_Sayer - October 2, 2015 at 1:22 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Minimalist - October 2, 2015 at 1:24 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 2, 2015 at 2:45 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Simon Moon - October 2, 2015 at 3:01 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 3, 2015 at 2:33 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 5, 2015 at 7:59 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Spooky - October 3, 2015 at 2:54 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 3, 2015 at 9:09 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by RoadRunner79 - October 4, 2015 at 12:08 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 5, 2015 at 8:19 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 3, 2015 at 10:48 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Minimalist - October 4, 2015 at 11:35 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Cecelia - October 4, 2015 at 12:24 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Cecelia - October 4, 2015 at 10:49 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by RoadRunner79 - October 4, 2015 at 11:42 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Minimalist - October 4, 2015 at 12:28 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 4, 2015 at 7:51 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by ApeNotKillApe - October 4, 2015 at 11:00 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Edwardo Piet - October 4, 2015 at 11:09 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Cecelia - October 5, 2015 at 1:17 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 5, 2015 at 3:23 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 5, 2015 at 8:38 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Mudhammam - October 5, 2015 at 9:01 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Edwardo Piet - October 5, 2015 at 10:06 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Mudhammam - October 5, 2015 at 11:57 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Esquilax - October 5, 2015 at 5:49 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Mudhammam - October 6, 2015 at 7:19 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Mudhammam - October 6, 2015 at 4:37 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 6, 2015 at 3:21 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 7, 2015 at 2:41 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Angrboda - October 7, 2015 at 11:12 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Esquilax - October 7, 2015 at 1:17 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 7, 2015 at 1:22 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 7, 2015 at 1:38 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Mudhammam - October 7, 2015 at 3:17 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Mudhammam - October 7, 2015 at 4:35 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 7, 2015 at 2:04 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 7, 2015 at 2:15 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Esquilax - October 7, 2015 at 4:06 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Angrboda - October 7, 2015 at 5:14 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Esquilax - October 8, 2015 at 7:04 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Mudhammam - October 9, 2015 at 12:48 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 7, 2015 at 5:01 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 8, 2015 at 12:40 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 8, 2015 at 7:34 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 8, 2015 at 8:26 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 8, 2015 at 8:38 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 8, 2015 at 8:47 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 8, 2015 at 9:12 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 8, 2015 at 9:19 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 8, 2015 at 10:53 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Edwardo Piet - October 8, 2015 at 12:09 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 9, 2015 at 7:33 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Mudhammam - October 9, 2015 at 11:21 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by nishants52 - October 9, 2015 at 7:45 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 9, 2015 at 9:59 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by houseofcantor - October 9, 2015 at 10:05 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 9, 2015 at 10:07 am
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 9, 2015 at 8:20 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 9, 2015 at 9:36 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 9, 2015 at 9:44 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by robvalue - October 9, 2015 at 10:01 pm
RE: Religion is a poor source of morality - by Edwardo Piet - October 10, 2015 at 5:26 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Evolution cannot account for morality chiknsld 341 48080 January 1, 2023 at 10:06 pm
Last Post: sdelsolray
  Debate: God & Morality: William Lane Craig vs Erik Wielenberg Jehanne 16 4149 March 2, 2018 at 8:06 pm
Last Post: Amarok
  Religion hurts homosexuality but homosexuality kills religion? deleteduser12345 43 12810 March 30, 2016 at 2:46 am
Last Post: robvalue
  Morality versus afterlife robvalue 163 38883 March 13, 2016 at 6:40 pm
Last Post: RoadRunner79
  Morality quiz, and objective moralities robvalue 14 5394 January 31, 2016 at 7:15 am
Last Post: robvalue
  Terrorism has no religion but religion brings terrorism. Islam is NOT peaceful. bussta33 13 5758 January 16, 2016 at 8:25 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Religion's affect outside of religion Heat 67 22258 September 28, 2015 at 9:45 pm
Last Post: TheRocketSurgeon
  How flexible is your religious morality? robvalue 24 8358 August 12, 2015 at 6:14 am
Last Post: robvalue
  The Daily Show....and Poor Discriminated Against Xtians.... Minimalist 14 4511 July 30, 2015 at 7:34 pm
Last Post: Exian
  "Ultimate" meaning, "objective" morality, and "inherent" worth. Esquilax 6 3958 June 25, 2015 at 4:06 am
Last Post: ignoramus



Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)