Christianity and Suicide

[Harry Nevis]

I'm not offended by anything you said. I also never said that anything you did was an attack. I'm just disappointed that you've gone with your chosen route. You made assumptions about me that aren't actually true and then based your arguments around them. This is an example of a straw man argument, and I am not going to play that specific game with yet another theist here. I've done that far too many times here already. If you have some truth to show me, then do so. Just don't try to make some false example of me in the process. I've given you plenty of chances here, and I'm just exhausted by trying to keep my stances clear to you.

 In the post where I said you may be avoiding I also gave another reason yet you did not address that one and I'm not sure why. I told you they were what I thought might be true and they were not brought up to upset you. I'm not just another theist as you put it, I'm a Christian, a follower of Christ the living God. I'm here to witness to those who will listen to what I say and if my witness has to fall into a category that others dictate what kind of witness is that. It's one that makes the others comfortable, sorry but that's not me causing the discomfort that could very well be the Holy Spirit, it may be answered prayer but that will be for you to decide. I have to tell the truth as I understand God's word and this is what you wanted to hear if I'm not mistaken, though it seems I'm mistaken about nearly everything I thought you were looking for.

GC

Don't limit yourself to just being wrong about what they were looking for...You're wrong about a whole lot more.

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We're not talking about the Big Bang here, we're talking about god. Provide evidence for his existence, and then we can argue about whether or not you can be a Christian and not know him.

 Dodging my question and trying to apply a double standard, I tried to get people to disprove God and that wasn't acceptable either, i'm not going argue by your one sided rules this is an open forum and you treat it that way when you reply to my post, changing rules to suit you and put me at a disadvantage ain't going to get it. I've always said that I can not prove God to an atheist's satisfaction and you can't disprove God to my satisfaction because I know God exist. You on the other hand do not know He doesn't exist.

GC

You couldn't prove god to a neutral party.

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I'm not dodging any questions because you didn't ask a question in your post. You threw in a red herring to get us off track. If you know god exists, then you have evidence for that claim. So provide the evidence.

 Okay consider it a question, where did the material come from? It was never meant to throw the conversation off track, it was intended to show you that certain secular claims are not provable yet widely accepted as fact.

GC

Who cares where the material came from?  No one worships the Big Bang.  It's a theory.  If it's wrong, few will shed a tear. Whereas your whole world revolves around you being right.  You're as far from objective as you can get.  You NEED your god to exist.  Aside from curiosity, I couldn't care less if the Big Bang is fact.

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I don't know where it came from. That does not automatically mean it's a god that did it, much less your god. Show me the evidence that it was god who did it.

 Material can not self generate from nothing, so I see no other thing to believe other than an all powerful and omniscient God created. Outside of the scriptures and common sense I can't give another answer, I wasn't there but man would I have love to have been there.

GC

That's because you stopped looking when you decided god did it.  You're impervious to logic and reason on the subject.

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Something can't come from nothing, yet god came from nothing, Mhmmm.

A bit of difference with God, He has always been, never created. Don't ask me how that is possible because I can only say I can't even imagine how that's possible, most likely not understandable by man anyway.

GC

Nothing like beliving in something you don't think anyone can understand.  Poor bastard.

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I don't understand how god could just exist and never be created, since I can't understand this, I conclude that something created him. This is now evidence that their is a god superior to yours. See? This is still an argument from ignorance, you don't know therefore x. There are lots of other hypothesis other than the Big Bang to explain the universe. I'm not familiar with them as I only read about them once when I was bored in Astronomy 101. I remember one seemed to be a continuous cycle of expansion and collapse. This is not evidence for any god, it's not evidence that your god did it (as opposed to Odin, or Allah), and it certainly provides no evidence for any of this god's properties.

 We know that materials can not self generate from nothing, so you see I started with accepted evidence and went from there. Your example went from "don't understand to never to can't understand" and then a conclusion. There are other ideas but they are not generally promoted by science, and none of them have any reasoning as to where the original materials came from. You don't accept it but at least I have an explanation.

GC

"God did it" is not an explanation.

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Not amongst physicists.  You know, the guys that actually study such things.  Amongst the religious laiety it may be accepted fact.  You know, the people who don't actually study such things.

So, as usual, you know no such thing.

ETA:  Also, you appear to be equivocating on the meaning of "know".  I was quite clear the sense of the word I am using here (something akin to "justified true belief").  You haven't justified it, and the truth value of your claim is unknown and possibly unknowable.

What hubris.  You know what your bible has to say about pride, yes?

 I'm not acting with pride, I'm stating fact and you know it. I've not heard of physicists saying that something can generate itself from nothing and just saying they believe it doesn't justify anything, nor does it make it true.

GC

So, you know this because you haven't heard a physicist saying otherwise.  You don't even know what the word "know" means.  You're a walking, talking example of hubris.

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Show me the scientific journal that provides evidence that materials cannot self generate please. And then get back on topic. Where is your evidence that god exists?

 I've told you I can not give you evidence for God you would accept, I've tried an it's been rejected. You want the evidence then you'll have to come to salvation through Jesus and then God will give you undeniable evidence. I was only communicating with Jesster in this thread until others jumped in and took this off course. I do not have to prove anything, the big bang is your claim not mine.

GC

I can't give evidence for leprechauns. I've tried, but it's all been rejected.  I wonder why?

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Just because you do not believe in God that doesn't make my statement invalid and it gives an explanation of how the universe started. You have no beginning, other than it was just there, stuff of fairy tales. No one has ever shown how life can self generate from chemicals, evolution has major problems at every turn, there is no evidence of how anything gets started with evolution.

Yes, it does make it invalid. It's a stupid explanation, as it explains nothing.  And, once again, you show you have no idea what evolutionary theory says.

You are quite right that it is not me being an atheist that makes your statement invalid. The Hopi Indians have an explanation for how the universe started too, and they also avoid all that nasty scientific stuff. Do you think the Hopi story is supported by lack of a way to confirm the several scientific hypotheses on the universe's origin? If not, does that lack of consistency trouble you in any way?

If I understood evolution as badly as you do, I wouldn't believe it either.

I have no idea what the Hopis believe and we weren't discussing them either you are deflecting to avoid the conversation at hand. Because man's mind is so small compared to the Creator of the universe we will never understand where the material came from. What science could do and some does is to find out what is happening in the universe now without the false assumption of the big bang. Science is cool I like much about real science and try to learn a little about things as I have the time.
Evolution is another fairy tale to replace God, there's nothing to believe about it.

GC

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Who, exactly, is assuming the Big Bang?