Atheist Bible Study 1: Genesis

[Drich]

Are you really arguing against me when I was actually agreeing with you? People are sinful by nature because of original sin.

yes and no. I am not arguing with the bits that agree, however most of what you have said is not in line with the distinction I made.


It's explained very easily in Romans 2 and 5
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another[/quote]
maybe from a different translation or perspective you will see the difference here and Abraham's specific situation.
14 Those who are not Jews don’t have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. This is true even though they don’t have the written law. 15 They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree. Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty. And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty.

Do you see it? Paul in romans 2 is directly describing gentiles who have the law written on their hearts.

I would surmise Abraham's situation with direct line of communication with God is a little more... indepth. than the general Roman gentile Paul is speaking of. (see romans 4) In that Abraham doesn't have to rely on what is on his heart but what God says to Him directly. and even so He still sins. (if he were under the law.) We in this study have pointed out several failures of abraham's faith which resulted in lies and other shortcomings/adultry.. if there were a law "sin".. Meaning we have a list of what would be identified as sin in abraham's own life, YET he is counted as a'righteous man before God. EVEN IN HIS SIN, With no sin sacrifice nor savior...

Where we differ is I have identified evil as being a class of 'sin' Evil is pure wanton rebellion against what God wants. This evil can be found in the people of sodom and gomorrah as per the parameters found in the story arch of genesis 18. This evil not just sin (as it is possible to be sinner as per abraham and not be evil per the people of Sodom) in this story.

(this is the bit that looses most christians as they make no distinction between sin and evil) While abraham is a sinner which full fills what paul says in your quote of romans he abraham is still counted as " good or righteous" before God. Which is why he says to god will you destroy the whole city if I can find 50 other "sinners" who are not evil? then 40 then 30 then 20 finally 10 He again must have figured there are at least 10 people he knew when they rescued lot from the raiding party a few chapters back who also were freed along with all of their stuff, or maybe they were friends of lot...

But again no. at that point when he could not find even 10, he knew the whole city even lot was bad and God allowing him to take lot out was god being very generous as because even if lot had not had his evil recorded to this point he knew the city and that life tainted lot and his family, as well as everyone else he knew. which again will manifested with his wife being turned into salt and his daughters getting him drunk and sleeping with their father.

Lot along with Sodom and Gomorrah as well as his family all turned evil, not just sinned but evil/wanted to live in the wrong Paul describes.

AND
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[e] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
[/hide]

not relevant to what I saying.. You think I am arguing no law no sin and you want to impress everyone is sin. I'm pointing out there was no law yet there is still Evil and righteousness. which is a very important thing to learn now as as the world is not sin or good, but redeemed sinful and evil.

I agree no one was righteous from that place 100% I also agree it was a mercy that He saved Lot. But as highlighted above, those before the law still had the law on their hearts, all had sinned, and sins aren't differentiated without the law.

Again we have shown abraham to still be a sinner if you can not see past this term. however there was no law. And again abraham's situation is a little different than the general roman gentile Paul is describing in Romans 2 no? As God speaks directly to abraham and not generally to the common roman gentile...
As such the separation you are trying to make between Abraham and Lot or the people of S&G is the EVil that Genesis chapter 18 says permits these two cities and the people that dwell in them.

Fore it is possible to sin and not be evil at this time and place as we have discussed Abraham himself is a known sinner but is still counted among the righteous as he still follows and obey the direct commands of God. He is even at a point where he can bargain with God which we are told is unlawful to do under the law. but again he here is not under the law, but is counted righteous as he follows God. Where as lot and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are identified as evil in the beginning.

Which in fact is the separation or nuance I have made here that you are missing. (as all your verses speak to simple sin and NOT the point of the evil being generated by S&G to the point where God is obliged to act.) a asin so great people without God's law cry out to God to step in and regulate these people.

In fact just go read Romans 3 and 4. They speak directly to justification of Abraham and original sin.

actually chapter 4 of romans is the foundation to the lesson or delineation between sin and evil. (how abraham was a sinner if under the law but not counted with lot and S&G.) or chapter 4 answers why Abraham's sins did not count against him. 1) there was no law 2)there was Abraham's faith and Action in what God said to Him. His in following God made Him right before God while Lot's deeds followed lot's wants and desires albeit though many years of compromise he ultimately followed his heart opposite of what God wanted. which is indeed at the heart of evil.

---

Are you really arguing against me when I was actually agreeing with you? People are sinful by nature because of original sin.

yes and no. I am not arguing with the bits that agree, however most of what you have said is not in line with the distinction I made.


It's explained very easily in Romans 2 and 5
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

maybe from a different translation or perspective you will see the difference here and Abraham's specific situation.
14 Those who are not Jews don’t have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. This is true even though they don’t have the written law. 15 They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree. Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty. And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty.

Do you see it? Paul in romans 2 is directly describing gentiles who have the law written on their hearts.

I would surmise Abraham's situation with direct line of communication with God is a little more... indepth. than the general Roman gentile Paul is speaking of. (see romans 4) In that Abraham doesn't have to rely on what is on his heart but what God says to Him directly. and even so He still sins. (if he were under the law.) We in this study have pointed out several failures of abraham's faith which resulted in lies and other shortcomings/adultry.. if there were a law "sin".. Meaning we have a list of what would be identified as sin in abraham's own life, YET he is counted as a'righteous man before God. EVEN IN HIS SIN, With no sin sacrifice nor savior...

Where we differ is I have identified evil as being a class of 'sin' Evil is pure wanton rebellion against what God wants. This evil can be found in the people of sodom and gomorrah as per the parameters found in the story arch of genesis 18. This evil not just sin (as it is possible to be sinner as per abraham and not be evil per the people of Sodom) in this story.

(this is the bit that looses most christians as they make no distinction between sin and evil) While abraham is a sinner which full fills what paul says in your quote of romans he abraham is still counted as " good or righteous" before God. Which is why he says to god will you destroy the whole city if I can find 50 other "sinners" who are not evil? then 40 then 30 then 20 finally 10 He again must have figured there are at least 10 people he knew when they rescued lot from the raiding party a few chapters back who also were freed along with all of their stuff, or maybe they were friends of lot...

But again no. at that point when he could not find even 10, he knew the whole city even lot was bad and God allowing him to take lot out was god being very generous as because even if lot had not had his evil recorded to this point he knew the city and that life tainted lot and his family, as well as everyone else he knew. which again will manifested with his wife being turned into salt and his daughters getting him drunk and sleeping with their father.

Lot along with Sodom and Gomorrah as well as his family all turned evil, not just sinned but evil/wanted to live in the wrong Paul describes.

AND
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[e] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
[/hide]

not relevant to what I saying.. You think I am arguing no law no sin and you want to impress everyone is sin. I'm pointing out there was no law yet there is still Evil and righteousness. which is a very important thing to learn now as as the world is not sin or good, but redeemed sinful and evil.

I agree no one was righteous from that place 100% I also agree it was a mercy that He saved Lot. But as highlighted above, those before the law still had the law on their hearts, all had sinned, and sins aren't differentiated without the law.

Again we have shown abraham to still be a sinner if you can not see past this term. however there was no law. And again abraham's situation is a little different than the general roman gentile Paul is describing in Romans 2 no? As God speaks directly to abraham and not generally to the common roman gentile...
As such the separation you are trying to make between Abraham and Lot or the people of S&G is the EVil that Genesis chapter 18 says permits these two cities and the people that dwell in them.

Fore it is possible to sin and not be evil at this time and place as we have discussed Abraham himself is a known sinner but is still counted among the righteous as he still follows and obey the direct commands of God. He is even at a point where he can bargain with God which we are told is unlawful to do under the law. but again he here is not under the law, but is counted righteous as he follows God. Where as lot and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are identified as evil in the beginning.

Which in fact is the separation or nuance I have made here that you are missing. (as all your verses speak to simple sin and NOT the point of the evil being generated by S&G to the point where God is obliged to act.) a asin so great people without God's law cry out to God to step in and regulate these people.

In fact just go read Romans 3 and 4. They speak directly to justification of Abraham and original sin.

actually chapter 4 of romans is the foundation to the lesson or delineation between sin and evil. (how abraham was a sinner if under the law but not counted with lot and S&G.) or chapter 4 answers why Abraham's sins did not count against him. 1) there was no law 2)there was Abraham's faith and Action in what God said to Him. His in following God made Him right before God while Lot's deeds followed lot's wants and desires albeit though many years of compromise he ultimately followed his heart opposite of what God wanted. which is indeed at the heart of evil.
[/quote]

---

Since we're bringing up passages from the NT (a reminder, btw, that atheists don't typically consider the Bible to be self-consistent), what about the claim that Lot was righteous according to 2 Peter? Doesn't this contradict what you (Drich, and maybe tackattack as well) said about Lot being corrupt?

6 God also punished the evil cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. He burned them until there was nothing left but ashes. He used those cities as an example of what will happen to people who are against God. 7 But he saved Lot, a good man who lived there. Lot was greatly troubled by the morally bad lives of those evil people. 8 This good man lived with those evil people every day, and his good heart was hurt by the evil things he saw and heard.

9 So you see that the Lord God knows how to save those who are devoted to him. He will save them when troubles come. And the Lord will hold evil people to punish them on the day of judgment. 10 That punishment is for those who are always doing the evil that their sinful selves want to do. It is for those who hate the Lord’s authority.

Lot was not so much righteous but as counted among the saved. Peter identifies lot as a good man because he was 'troubled' by his neighbors and what they wanted to do with the two angel visitors... Then lot offers his two virgin daughters instead... to peter this may make lot out to be a good man, but my personal standard are a little higher, but again I am under the law and lot was not. Meaning I have been held to a high standard than what lot has been held to, but I am no judge. only one charged to live by the law not to use the law to judge others. As I couldn't even do that and require atonement, as does lot I have no say in the matter as I need the same attoning grace lot needs. In the end both peter and I acknowledge God's authority to make said judgment and we will both respect however God judges lot. if he is a good man, then who am I to say different?