Atheist Bible Study 1: Genesis

[tackattack]

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No drich, what you're doing is ignoring my definitions of sin and evil for your definitions. You say:
Sin = ?? IDK, you don't state, but from your exegesis  I'll assume you define sin as doing something against God's written law
Evil = a subset or type of sin "Evil is a deep desire to be in sin or a heavy act of sin/knowing doing something God does not want"

Where I define the 2 as
Sin - is either violating a law/revealed divine truth from God or not applying a law/revealed divine truth from God.
Evil - As classification of a whole, the opposite of good; thinking that consistently opposes divine truth either in belief and behavior

where do you see a difference between your definition and mine?
I said sin is anything not in God's express will. Meaning if God does not say it is a sin or if we live in apart of history where God has not yet defined sin.. then a given act is not sin. Again the parable of the talents Jesus Himself says bears this out. Even so your defination of sin also bears this out.

Anything not in the express will anything meaning any act thought or deed not in the expressed will or as you said violating a law or (expressed will)/divine truth. Anything not in God's expressed will is the same as the back half of your statement (not applying God's truth) because if it is God expressed will that you do aply a given act or truth then you are indeed in sin.

The definitions are the same. i just took the general definition and made it easier to understand, you see to be checking for a transcription of the general definition.

The same is true for evil My basic definition states that evil is intentional opposition to the will of God. Itis act want or desire to be outside of God's expressed will and to seek out and dwell in your own. Evil is open rebellion to God. which is the same as saying consistent oppsition to "devine truth in act or belief.

My only distinction is I say not all sin is evil but all evil is sin. You can be i sin nand not an evil person. paul bears this lesson out in roman starting chapter 6 going through chapter 9

God can not sin,

Never said god can sin. by his nature anything God does is in his expressed will. So even if it is a sin for us it is not a sin for him. Ex taking human life,  Rage and anger ect..

nor be evil because He can not be other than Himself. Man can sin or be evil, both or neither. Sin is about a particular action, evil is about a thought or judgement on a behavior. I also agree with Jor that I don't believe man can be 100% evil as a whle being. Due to the sheer amount of effort at least some amount of time would be spent being neutral. Man has the potential for sin and evil, and I believe a propensity towards evil, due to inherited nature.

when did I say anything that prompted this? or did you see an opportunity to just preach?

With regards to Abraham and Lot's wife, et all. They sinned, sure. But we can't really judge if they were evil or not as a whole, just that during certain times they did sin which was evil at that moment.

Did you even read the story? Judgement comes from God here to lot's wife as she longed for the life and people God sought to destroy and was judge by God by being turned into a pillar of salt! Lot's judgement comes later and to lot I have already backed off his judgement, so why do you press as if I am persecuting him? His daughters on the other hand do a disgracful thing and as a result they tain or known for starting a disgraceful blood line.

The point you make I disagree with is " it is possible to sin and never be evil." Sin is evil. We can discuss venial sins, willful sins, mortal sins, and classify different levels of sin, but all are in opposition to God and if God IS good, thus the opposite of good is evil. ie. all sins are evil. That evil may not condemn you due to the grace of God, but I can't say it's not evil, and us mortals don't have the propensity for sin and evil.

Is Paul evil?
Romans 7:
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good. 17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

Seems to me Paul just made my point for me. or rather I copied paul's idea here and condensed it down to All evil is sin, but not all sin is evil.

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I've derailed the Bible study enough though. To grandizer's point. Yes polytheistic Canaanites and the Jew orthodoxy consider atonement through rituals as a way to atone for sins. atonement in the modern Christian clarity would require citing other books, so I'll stay there for now and let the conversation continue, while I get back over to morality on a different thread.

While we wait for the Bible study to proceed from the above point past atonement, I don't mind the exegetical exercise (also I'm not offended or hurt that we disagree, just trying to clarify that point).

Yes Paul did evil. He claims to do evil then he claims that it's his nature that is responsible.

If you're going to use non Genesis books then might I point out that your point that "I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin" Is not the entirety of the verse you cited. Please read just this in your context of defining sin and evil:
"Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. "


Sin and Evil are both things to do (an action) and are both against God's will. We are all culpable for our action come judgement day. God's nature hasn't changed from Genesis to Revelations. Hopefully we can agree on the last 3 sentences?

We do not have the perspective to judge anyone's thoughts or entire lives, that's God's realm. Can we agree on that too?

If we are in agreement on those 4 things, Sin and Evil are parts of the whole. Like the numbers in an equation. They will either add up to positive or negative. That positive or negative is colloquially call good or evil as well. Was Hitler evil, was Ghandi evil, was Paul evil? Yes. Can they all be saved by God's grace or condemned by His judgement? yes.

If your claim is that we are not responsible for committing evil because sin is responsible, you can see where atheists and theists have a problem with this. My animal instincts made me kill that person is the same as God made me kill that person and thus thwarts your entire morality.


Side note: I appreciate your exegesis and discourse and hope you can help me find out where we're not seeing eye to eye. Every part of the Body and belief has different functionality and steel sharpens steel. God doesn't give pride though, He gives the Holy Spirit the fruits of which are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.