RE: if god is real then...
May 24, 2012 at 7:07 pm
(This post was last modified: May 24, 2012 at 7:35 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(May 12, 2012 at 6:46 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: This is like the oldest argument against the existence of God. It's mostly a futile argument I'm afraid because theists think God existed eternally outside of time where cause and effect are meaningless.
If time is meaningless then why did he suddenly create the universe?
(May 18, 2012 at 9:14 pm)Polaris Wrote: Same argument over the existence of the universe. What created the Big Bang and what if anything existed in the time prior?
There is no grounds to say what existed before the big bang because well tested laws of physics at the moment can not yet be satisfactorily applied to the conditions immediately surrounding the big bang.
(May 19, 2012 at 2:37 am)genkaus Wrote:(May 18, 2012 at 9:14 pm)Polaris Wrote: Same argument over the existence of the universe. What created the Big Bang and what if anything existed in the time prior?
What makes you think there was a "time prior"?
What makes you think there isn't?
(May 19, 2012 at 7:23 am)Ace Otana Wrote:(May 18, 2012 at 9:14 pm)Polaris Wrote: Same argument over the existence of the universe. What created the Big Bang and what if anything existed in the time prior?
There was no 'before' the big bang. Time did not exist. Also what created the big bang? Perhaps quantum mechanics (another law of nature) is what allows the universe to simply pop into existence. Photons pop in and out of existence all the time, and the universe was once smaller than a photon.
I think physics only has a empirical understanding of time, and does not yet have a fundamental understanding of time. Coupled with the fact that just about everything else in current physics's understanding can not actually be extrapolated all the way to T=0 and still produce convincing answers, I think it's very bold to say whether time, or something analogous to time, existed before the big bang.
Unlike god, if a eternal universe does exist according to the string theory models, we will eventually be able to say a whole lot about what the fuck it was doing before it created the universe we are now familiar with.
(May 19, 2012 at 10:37 am)Paul the Human Wrote:(May 19, 2012 at 10:29 am)WhatIfGodWasJustAMyth Wrote: Well to play devil's advocate, while I am an atheist, the same argument can be used against any proposal to how the universe started. You can keep going back to the beginning over and over and asking “Well how did that get there then, huh?”
It's a meaningless question. There is no... there cannot be.... before existence. By definition, nonexistence cannot exist. There was never any need for "creation".
I think this is argument by definition and does not really address the issue.
(May 19, 2012 at 10:54 am)liam Wrote: Does it not seem incredibly convenient to everyone present that God just happens to exist OUTSIDE of that which we know exists, such as time and the universe?
Yeah, it's a cheat. Define something without testable attributes so it can't be proven false, then shout "it exists" and don't look at the odds.
(May 23, 2012 at 1:58 am)Adjusted Sanity Wrote: It's awesome that the reason we exist is because things can exist for no reason. I just love that. I really wish I knew why it worked like that. But I'd probably explode if I could comprehend it.
The whole point of physics is not only do things exist for reasons, but we can understand these reasons so well we can predict what else it will do.
The fact that things exist for a reason, however, is the the same as things existing by intent.
(May 19, 2012 at 12:02 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: I never said the universe is static. The universe is all things, including time. There can not be a reality without existence and the universe is existence. There cannot be a 'before existence'.
That's argument by definition, which defines away the problem rather than address or solve the problem.
