God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

[The Grand Nudger]

Just laying the foundation for what is to come.

Stop pulling on it then and get to the moneyshot.

Allow me to clarify. In order for you to understand a more indepth answer you will have to acknoweledge the authority of God. If you have trouble with that "God said so" usally fishes it out. So point blank do you have any problem accepting the authority of God? If yes the the conversation is at an end. If not we may proceed with the next step of the explaination.

I don't have to acknowledge the authority of the government of any other country to understand their explanations for their laws. So that's a categorical dodge. Are you telling me that so long as I think "god says so" is a shitty excuse for not having an answer you are incapable of proceeding in this conversation? Is that supposed to make me feel like you actually have an explanation of how a blood sacrifice atones for anything..or is it supposed to assure me that you don't?

Actually I do, are you prepared to take it 'seriously?'

Like i said above, stop playing with it. Point it at the camera and let'er rip.

..and I know you do not understand. It is not up to you to pay the price God set on sin. Nothing you have can attone for your sin. The price was paid by God himself. The second part you miss out on is the The Point of setting the price so high in the first place was to put people like you off to the idea of God demanding that this price is to be paid in the first place.

It absolutely is up to me. Sure, the narrative says that I've been handed a token that I didn't create or earn myself..but ultimately I have to give the token to the man at the lever before he lets me on the ride. I don't even want this token in my pocket, let alone be a willing accomplice to all that has gone into it's manufacture by accepting and perpetuating it's validity. If the point of this narrative was to turn people like me off, then bravo, it's clearly done so. But what kind of person wouldn't be turned off by this? Who exactly are we filling heaven with again?

Again, which is probably one of the reasons the price was set that high. To filter out the people who would not pay it.

A useful filter, even for me, because I wouldn't want to spend much time with people who were willing to pay it, nor would I want to spend any time with the being that instituted such a system of barter. I'm going to repeat this for you. This is sick, it is disgusting, and it does not help to establish that authority you mentioned above.

Again if we have been given the ablity to freely choose, then ultimatly someone will not want to choose God. That fact that you were able to form a disagreeable opinion of God based on the requirements of Faith tell me that is one of very reasons for the requirements set by Him.

You wouldn't make the same decision if a person here, in this world, offered a similar deal? Am I to hold your god to a lower standard than I hold it's supposed creations?

So that you may filter yourself out of the fellowship He has planned for everyone else. In turn It been my experience (*per Festive1's advice) that we have been given things (moral issues) like this so we know in our hearts without reservation or doubt, that our final judgement is just and accurate.

What about blood sacrifice and vicarious redemption is supposed to leave me with the impression that your god is qualified to weigh in on what is just or accurate? It has the opposite effect on me Drich.

That before we are judged we know our eternal fate. It is a kindness to know why you have been sent to eternal seperation after getting to know ever so briefly the Love of God. The only thing worse than going to Hell is not knowing why you are their. IF This is your fate, you will know why you will spend eternity seperated from God.

This love doesn't sound much like love. If I wake up one morning and find myself in hell I'll only know that I was sent their by a scapegoating deity...I still won't know why. But ultimately that's irrelevant as to the "how" of atonement via blood sacrifice...vicarious redemption.

The problem with our current understanding of judgement is that arguements have to be weighed and reasoned out to seek truth. God does not need reasons or evidence or anything else. Judgement is swift and accurate. Their is only truth, and not interpertation of evidence. Heb 4:12 For the word of God (Another name for Jesus) is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

I see, so I -am- supposed to hold you god to a lower standard. Well, unfortunately, I refuse. Judgement may be swift, but in absence of reason, evidence or arguments I fail to see how it could be called accurate, and it certainly cannot be called just. This, again, is irrelevant to "how" blood sacrifice and vicarious redemption atones for anything. What's this about giving an account anyway? An account of what? I thought evidence and reason was out from the word go? This doesn't seem to have been thought through very well..... Are you telling me that even though this "account"...whatever that is, doesn't factor in...god requires no evidence..no reason...we have to give it anyway? Why, because he like to listen as much as he likes to watch? The sinner stands before him already condemned to hell - for no reason, with no evidence...but god says "dance puppet"?

Hell is the absence of the Glory of God. Hell is a void or pit. It is the oppsite of creation. So yes, God will ensure that you will be place apart from Him/His Glory and the rest of creation. This promise has been made many times through out scripture. God Will Not drag anyone into Heaven Kicking and screaming. If you want to be seperated from God, then He has an 'app' for that.

Suppose I don't want anything to do with his app? You said I could be separated from all that he has created.......god at least put boundaries around that void or pit in his creation of all other things...and I'd like to be separated from those as well. Hows he going to keep me stuck in this place he created by exclusion while keeping the promise that you've made to me -in his stead-, and why should I trust the promises you make for another to be carried out to begin with? Is this god beholden to you as his self appointed messenger to uphold any old thing you may say in passing to a person such as myself? I hardly think so.

If you ask What color my car is? i am bound by the parameters of your question to answer Red. Like wise if you ask of a specific value or a given nature of God, I am also bound to tell you what I know of your question. If you do not like the answer then ask a different question.

Or, you could decide not to answer the question...which is, amusingly, exactly what you have done thusfar. You've done a fantastic job of making me dislike the god that you have created even more, but you haven't even begun to answer the question I asked...in fact, you explicitly stated at the very beginning that you weren't going to answer the question...and then proceeded to deliver what I can sum up no more sympathetically than a steaming pile of malevolent shit as a sort of consolation prize. Wht bothers me is not that a god operates this way..because it doesn't. What bothers me is that this is how -you- wish for a god to operate. This, to you, is the highest example of righteousness. "Bothers" isn't even the word. It curdles my stomach, and the thought that other people might share such an opinion..in it's excruciatingly horrid details, reduces my opinion of our entire species.

But then...I remember that it's just you Drich. These are your wishes. Your ideals. Your fantasies. Your inability to answer a question. Suddenly I feel much better. Now, you could explain the whole atonement bit to me if you wanted to, and it won't actually make me a christian. I'll still be unwilling to exchange that token, but at least you'll have explained something Drich, and that would be very refreshing to me. At least then, even though I don't agree...it can actually work. It's not a product I would buy, but it can do what it says it does on the label. That's a hell of a step up, and I fail to see why you wouldn't want to be the bearer of that explanation, why you'd rather evade that explanation....why you'd rather make excuses for that evasion. Would it be too bold of me to suggest a simple explanation for all of this? An explanation that I would have appreciated and commended you for offering. You don't actually know how it's supposed to work (let alone whether or not it does), do you?