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The idea of God always existing
RE: The idea of God always existing
(December 2, 2012 at 12:39 am)Darkstar Wrote:
(December 1, 2012 at 4:14 am)Undeceived Wrote: Possibly, depending on what you call 'space'.
By 'space' I mean matter.
I'm not sure about matter, but when scientists are debating the beginning of the universe they're usually talking about energy. Time is change and change only happens when energy is applied to matter. Scientists agree that positive energy surfaced at one point and time. Some call it the Big Bang. Without energy, matter remains inert. Could energy be eternal? Only if you are willing to take the cause and effects of energy back into infinity--an infinite regress. But if infinite regress doesn't bother you, Sagan's theory isn't disproven (though it might be in infinite, unknowable limbo).
(December 2, 2012 at 12:39 am)Darkstar Wrote:
(December 1, 2012 at 4:14 am)Undeceived Wrote: No one was proposing space arranging into a being "prior to the beginning of the universe." They were, however, explaining that the first cause in the chain must have no beginning--it must be pure actuality. This could be a divine being [no evidence], or an undiscovered force (no evidence). Or there could be a way for our current natural laws to be violated, eliminating the need for a cause->effect (with all evidence to the contrary). Again I ask, which is the most plausible to you? Or do you have another proposition to add to the list?

Why a divine being? In the words of Carl Sagan "why not save a step?" Which is more plausible to you? (I pick the first, by the way):
1. The universe came into being without a cause
2. An omnipotent, omniscent, infinite being came into existence without a cause, and then proceeded to create a universe from nothing.
3. A personal, eternal, causeless being created the universe. He/she did not "come into existence", but always was. Here's the argument in summary: Infinite regress can only be avoided when the first efficient cause is eternal. But being eternal means having no change, and change is required to start a universe. That leaves us with only one solution: the eternal causal agent is a personal entity who can choose to make change in spite of his/her own changeless nature.
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Messages In This Thread
The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - March 7, 2012 at 5:47 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by padraic - March 7, 2012 at 6:15 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Minimalist - March 7, 2012 at 6:48 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 10:25 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by IATIA - December 2, 2012 at 2:56 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 7, 2012 at 6:51 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by michaelbest55 - November 29, 2012 at 5:40 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Cinjin - November 30, 2012 at 11:11 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - November 30, 2012 at 3:41 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by genkaus - November 30, 2012 at 9:00 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Darkstar - November 30, 2012 at 10:44 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - December 1, 2012 at 4:14 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Darkstar - December 2, 2012 at 12:39 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - December 2, 2012 at 9:39 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Darkstar - December 2, 2012 at 10:04 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - December 3, 2012 at 2:10 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by IATIA - December 3, 2012 at 2:43 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 3, 2012 at 7:36 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - December 3, 2012 at 3:14 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 3, 2012 at 6:50 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - December 4, 2012 at 1:59 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 4, 2012 at 6:40 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by downbeatplumb - December 6, 2012 at 2:25 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Kousbroek - December 2, 2012 at 7:41 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by genkaus - December 4, 2012 at 1:40 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Anomalocaris - March 7, 2012 at 6:51 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 7, 2012 at 6:55 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Anomalocaris - March 7, 2012 at 7:02 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 7, 2012 at 7:12 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 7, 2012 at 7:06 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Anomalocaris - March 7, 2012 at 7:23 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 7, 2012 at 7:35 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Anomalocaris - March 7, 2012 at 8:07 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 7, 2012 at 8:49 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 7, 2012 at 10:23 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ThomM - March 7, 2012 at 10:33 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - March 7, 2012 at 11:15 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 8, 2012 at 12:45 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Skepsis - March 8, 2012 at 1:47 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 7, 2012 at 11:48 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - March 7, 2012 at 11:54 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 8, 2012 at 6:49 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by NoMoreFaith - March 8, 2012 at 6:54 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 9, 2012 at 8:56 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 8, 2012 at 1:12 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - March 8, 2012 at 1:42 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 8, 2012 at 2:49 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by NoMoreFaith - March 8, 2012 at 6:33 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - March 8, 2012 at 2:54 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 8, 2012 at 2:58 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Ace Otana - March 8, 2012 at 8:05 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 8, 2012 at 11:54 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by NoMoreFaith - March 8, 2012 at 1:12 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 8, 2012 at 12:21 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 8, 2012 at 12:31 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by picto90 - March 8, 2012 at 12:57 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 8, 2012 at 1:03 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by picto90 - March 8, 2012 at 1:08 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 8, 2012 at 1:16 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by picto90 - March 8, 2012 at 1:26 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 8, 2012 at 1:31 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Faith No More - March 8, 2012 at 3:06 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 8, 2012 at 10:14 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - March 9, 2012 at 2:08 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by toro - March 9, 2012 at 11:34 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 10, 2012 at 12:19 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by toro - March 10, 2012 at 10:08 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 10:20 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 10:29 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 10:39 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 10:41 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 10:46 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 11:20 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 10:46 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 10:48 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 10:51 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 11:30 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 11:39 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 11:43 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 11:51 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 12:22 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 12:31 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Welsh cake - March 10, 2012 at 11:59 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 11:59 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 12:04 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 12:31 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 12:35 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 12:33 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 12:40 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 12:44 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Cinjin - March 10, 2012 at 12:40 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 12:42 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 12:41 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 12:45 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 12:50 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 12:48 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 12:51 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 12:55 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 12:57 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 12:59 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Cinjin - March 10, 2012 at 12:59 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 1:13 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 1:16 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 1:21 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 1:27 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 1:24 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 1:25 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 1:26 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 1:27 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 1:27 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 1:28 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 1:28 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 1:40 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 1:35 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 1:42 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 1:45 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 1:44 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 2:12 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 1:49 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by downbeatplumb - March 10, 2012 at 3:03 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 2:16 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 10, 2012 at 2:18 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Cinjin - March 10, 2012 at 3:31 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 10, 2012 at 3:34 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 8:26 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 10, 2012 at 8:30 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 8:32 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 10, 2012 at 8:33 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 8:35 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 11, 2012 at 1:18 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 11, 2012 at 10:44 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 11, 2012 at 11:29 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 11, 2012 at 1:20 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 11, 2012 at 1:22 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 11, 2012 at 1:20 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 11, 2012 at 1:23 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 11, 2012 at 1:30 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 11, 2012 at 1:31 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by SaintGeorge - March 14, 2012 at 9:03 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Godschild - March 15, 2012 at 3:21 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by NoMoreFaith - March 15, 2012 at 7:04 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ThomM - August 23, 2012 at 8:04 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Jackalope - August 23, 2012 at 8:16 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by festive1 - November 29, 2012 at 5:46 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by padraic - August 23, 2012 at 11:20 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Kayenneh - August 24, 2012 at 4:33 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Minimalist - November 29, 2012 at 5:51 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Cato - November 29, 2012 at 5:54 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Minimalist - November 29, 2012 at 5:59 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by John V - December 3, 2012 at 3:48 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Kousbroek - December 3, 2012 at 3:54 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by IATIA - December 4, 2012 at 9:12 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - December 5, 2012 at 11:09 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - December 6, 2012 at 2:04 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Ryft - December 10, 2012 at 3:47 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Rayaan - December 10, 2012 at 4:15 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Ryft - December 10, 2012 at 4:40 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Welsh cake - December 10, 2012 at 4:29 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Rayaan - December 10, 2012 at 4:42 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by KichigaiNeko - December 10, 2012 at 4:51 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - December 11, 2012 at 1:44 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ronedee - December 11, 2012 at 11:07 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Darkstar - December 11, 2012 at 12:04 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ronedee - December 11, 2012 at 3:13 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 11, 2012 at 3:17 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Ryft - December 11, 2012 at 9:15 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 12, 2012 at 6:07 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - December 12, 2012 at 11:37 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Dee Dee Ramone - December 12, 2012 at 11:48 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 13, 2012 at 6:12 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Ryft - December 13, 2012 at 11:43 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Darkstar - December 11, 2012 at 9:18 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Ryft - December 12, 2012 at 9:51 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - December 12, 2012 at 9:57 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - December 13, 2012 at 1:51 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Dee Dee Ramone - December 13, 2012 at 2:41 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 13, 2012 at 12:16 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ronedee - December 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 14, 2012 at 12:10 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ronedee - December 16, 2012 at 9:53 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 17, 2012 at 6:16 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Dee Dee Ramone - December 17, 2012 at 6:25 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 17, 2012 at 6:28 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Dee Dee Ramone - December 17, 2012 at 6:29 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ronedee - December 17, 2012 at 12:19 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by downbeatplumb - December 17, 2012 at 2:43 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 17, 2012 at 4:51 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Faith No More - December 13, 2012 at 4:01 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by TarShoduze - December 17, 2012 at 6:51 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Faith No More - December 17, 2012 at 4:15 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ronedee - December 18, 2012 at 4:09 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 18, 2012 at 4:33 pm

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