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The idea of God always existing
RE: The idea of God always existing
(December 2, 2012 at 10:04 pm)Darkstar Wrote:
(December 2, 2012 at 9:39 pm)Undeceived Wrote: 3. A personal, eternal, causeless being created the universe. He/she did not "come into existence", but always was.
"Why not save a step and say the universe always was?"

Because our natural laws say that energy cannot always have been. No beginning = scientific contradiction. We need a causal agent that is by definition supernatural (meaning outside of the natural system) so that there is no contradiction with natural laws. God fits the bill. All natural things are caused, but a supernatural being or force would not have to be caused, because they are spiritual and do not require physical energy. The causal agent has to be eternal, and eternal means unchanging (again, all changes have causes and we can't logically have infinite causes). Our universe is always changing, and its entropy is increasing, meaning the energy is running down from one starting point. What caused that spike in energy, that it is able to run down over time?
[Image: entropy1.jpg]
Entropy: a measure inversely related to the energy available for work in a physical system. So imagine the line above running in a downwards slope from the beginning of time.

(December 2, 2012 at 10:04 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Or, if he "always was" would not an infinite amount of time have had to pass to reach this point?
God is changeless, so time does not exist for him. He is always in the present. He made time for our world so we could learn and make choices--so we could change.
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Messages In This Thread
The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - March 7, 2012 at 5:47 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by padraic - March 7, 2012 at 6:15 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Minimalist - March 7, 2012 at 6:48 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 10:25 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by IATIA - December 2, 2012 at 2:56 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 7, 2012 at 6:51 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by michaelbest55 - November 29, 2012 at 5:40 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Cinjin - November 30, 2012 at 11:11 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - November 30, 2012 at 3:41 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by genkaus - November 30, 2012 at 9:00 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Darkstar - November 30, 2012 at 10:44 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - December 1, 2012 at 4:14 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Darkstar - December 2, 2012 at 12:39 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - December 2, 2012 at 9:39 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Darkstar - December 2, 2012 at 10:04 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - December 3, 2012 at 2:10 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by IATIA - December 3, 2012 at 2:43 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 3, 2012 at 7:36 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - December 3, 2012 at 3:14 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 3, 2012 at 6:50 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - December 4, 2012 at 1:59 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 4, 2012 at 6:40 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by downbeatplumb - December 6, 2012 at 2:25 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Kousbroek - December 2, 2012 at 7:41 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by genkaus - December 4, 2012 at 1:40 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Anomalocaris - March 7, 2012 at 6:51 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 7, 2012 at 6:55 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Anomalocaris - March 7, 2012 at 7:02 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 7, 2012 at 7:12 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 7, 2012 at 7:06 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Anomalocaris - March 7, 2012 at 7:23 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 7, 2012 at 7:35 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Anomalocaris - March 7, 2012 at 8:07 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 7, 2012 at 8:49 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 7, 2012 at 10:23 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ThomM - March 7, 2012 at 10:33 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - March 7, 2012 at 11:15 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 8, 2012 at 12:45 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Skepsis - March 8, 2012 at 1:47 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 7, 2012 at 11:48 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - March 7, 2012 at 11:54 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 8, 2012 at 6:49 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by NoMoreFaith - March 8, 2012 at 6:54 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 9, 2012 at 8:56 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 8, 2012 at 1:12 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - March 8, 2012 at 1:42 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 8, 2012 at 2:49 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by NoMoreFaith - March 8, 2012 at 6:33 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - March 8, 2012 at 2:54 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 8, 2012 at 2:58 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Ace Otana - March 8, 2012 at 8:05 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by MysticKnight - March 8, 2012 at 11:54 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by NoMoreFaith - March 8, 2012 at 1:12 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 8, 2012 at 12:21 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 8, 2012 at 12:31 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by picto90 - March 8, 2012 at 12:57 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 8, 2012 at 1:03 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by picto90 - March 8, 2012 at 1:08 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 8, 2012 at 1:16 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by picto90 - March 8, 2012 at 1:26 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 8, 2012 at 1:31 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Faith No More - March 8, 2012 at 3:06 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 8, 2012 at 10:14 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - March 9, 2012 at 2:08 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by toro - March 9, 2012 at 11:34 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Neo-Scholastic - March 10, 2012 at 12:19 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by toro - March 10, 2012 at 10:08 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 10:20 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 10:29 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 10:39 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 10:41 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 10:46 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 11:20 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 10:46 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 10:48 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 10:51 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 11:30 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 11:39 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 11:43 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 11:51 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 12:22 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 12:31 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Welsh cake - March 10, 2012 at 11:59 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 11:59 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 12:04 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 12:31 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 12:35 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 12:33 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 12:40 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 12:44 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Cinjin - March 10, 2012 at 12:40 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 12:42 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 12:41 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 12:45 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 12:50 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 12:48 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 12:51 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 12:55 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 12:57 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 12:59 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Cinjin - March 10, 2012 at 12:59 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 1:13 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 1:16 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 1:21 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 1:27 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 1:24 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 1:25 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 1:26 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 1:27 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 1:27 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 1:28 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by black36 - March 10, 2012 at 1:28 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 1:40 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 1:35 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 1:42 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Phil - March 10, 2012 at 1:45 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 1:44 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by frankiej - March 10, 2012 at 2:12 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 1:49 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by downbeatplumb - March 10, 2012 at 3:03 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 10, 2012 at 2:16 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 10, 2012 at 2:18 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Cinjin - March 10, 2012 at 3:31 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 10, 2012 at 3:34 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 8:26 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 10, 2012 at 8:30 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 8:32 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 10, 2012 at 8:33 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 10, 2012 at 8:35 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 11, 2012 at 1:18 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 11, 2012 at 10:44 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 11, 2012 at 11:29 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 11, 2012 at 1:20 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 11, 2012 at 1:22 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - March 11, 2012 at 1:20 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 11, 2012 at 1:23 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Shell B - March 11, 2012 at 1:30 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Werewolff - March 11, 2012 at 1:31 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by SaintGeorge - March 14, 2012 at 9:03 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Godschild - March 15, 2012 at 3:21 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by NoMoreFaith - March 15, 2012 at 7:04 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ThomM - August 23, 2012 at 8:04 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Jackalope - August 23, 2012 at 8:16 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by festive1 - November 29, 2012 at 5:46 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by padraic - August 23, 2012 at 11:20 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Kayenneh - August 24, 2012 at 4:33 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Minimalist - November 29, 2012 at 5:51 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Cato - November 29, 2012 at 5:54 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Minimalist - November 29, 2012 at 5:59 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by John V - December 3, 2012 at 3:48 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Kousbroek - December 3, 2012 at 3:54 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by IATIA - December 4, 2012 at 9:12 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by The Grand Nudger - December 5, 2012 at 11:09 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Voltair - December 6, 2012 at 2:04 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Ryft - December 10, 2012 at 3:47 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Rayaan - December 10, 2012 at 4:15 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Ryft - December 10, 2012 at 4:40 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Welsh cake - December 10, 2012 at 4:29 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Rayaan - December 10, 2012 at 4:42 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by KichigaiNeko - December 10, 2012 at 4:51 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - December 11, 2012 at 1:44 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ronedee - December 11, 2012 at 11:07 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Darkstar - December 11, 2012 at 12:04 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ronedee - December 11, 2012 at 3:13 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 11, 2012 at 3:17 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Ryft - December 11, 2012 at 9:15 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 12, 2012 at 6:07 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Undeceived - December 12, 2012 at 11:37 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Dee Dee Ramone - December 12, 2012 at 11:48 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 13, 2012 at 6:12 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Ryft - December 13, 2012 at 11:43 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Darkstar - December 11, 2012 at 9:18 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Ryft - December 12, 2012 at 9:51 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - December 12, 2012 at 9:57 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - December 13, 2012 at 1:51 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Dee Dee Ramone - December 13, 2012 at 2:41 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 13, 2012 at 12:16 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ronedee - December 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 14, 2012 at 12:10 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ronedee - December 16, 2012 at 9:53 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 17, 2012 at 6:16 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Dee Dee Ramone - December 17, 2012 at 6:25 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 17, 2012 at 6:28 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Dee Dee Ramone - December 17, 2012 at 6:29 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ronedee - December 17, 2012 at 12:19 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by downbeatplumb - December 17, 2012 at 2:43 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 17, 2012 at 4:51 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Faith No More - December 13, 2012 at 4:01 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by TarShoduze - December 17, 2012 at 6:51 am
RE: The idea of God always existing - by Faith No More - December 17, 2012 at 4:15 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by ronedee - December 18, 2012 at 4:09 pm
RE: The idea of God always existing - by pocaracas - December 18, 2012 at 4:33 pm

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