I left this thread eons ago.... why the fuck did you guys resurrect it T_T.
Alright this discussion always ends up in the realms of masturbation: It feels really good but just makes a huge mess... EVERY.... TIME.
Anyway, everything we are talking about here is purely theoretical and lies outside of our ability to measure. Inside of our universe it appears most everything obeys the laws of cause and effect. However when talking about what happened pre-universe, if there was such a thing, we have NO IDEA what the rules would be.
If you step outside of our universe you theoretically step outside of all the scientific laws we know and observe. This does not actually give any more strength the idea of deity. A lot of people seem to think that if you can just get this argument to the point of metaphysics that all of the sudden God wins. No metaphysics simply means the study of that which is beyond the physical. I have even, since I last posted, figured out that some people even refer to spiritual and metaphysical in the same light.
Whatever is outside/caused our universe may or may not be metaphysical. We really have no way of knowing if there is even anything outside of the universe. This is why this whole argument is pure mental masturbation at this point. No one can prove one damn thing about pre-universe days because we cannot measure exactly what happened with our universe at the beginning.
Saying that God being metaphysical makes him immune to needing a cause is also mental masturbation. How do you know whether or not metaphysical things need a cause? There are some things that are metaphysical though that CLEARLY do require a cause. Ideas are a great example of this. An idea starts/is formed in the mind which is a product of a physical brain.
After this idea is formed and spoken it exists in either records or the minds of people who heard it. But you cannot really measure an idea like you can a particle of matter. An idea may be stored as an electrical signal or whatnot (forgive me I am not well studied on the intricacies of the brain) but I would still classify it as metaphysical. An idea can never be destroyed only forgotten.
So in a sense an idea is eternal but it still had a cause. Just saying God does not have a cause does not prove that he didn't. In fact what if God did exist but had a cause? How can we possibly know one way or the other on it? You cannot prove a metaphysical being exists without any proof. You can believe it or perceive it but that is all that is going on. The ontological, telelogical, cosmological, moral, faith, experience, and belief in inspiration of scripture arguments do not establish anything for certain.
The only one out of ANY of those arguments that can be measured is scripture and under scrutiny it does not hold up well. The other six are products of what people feel about something not what they can prove. I am not trying to say I can prove God does not exist, that is impossible. However I can certainly say that no one has proven he does exist either which is why I am Agnostic on the issue. True knowledge on this subject based on how everything is defined is IMPOSSIBLE.
Btw - its nice to see you all again :3
Alright this discussion always ends up in the realms of masturbation: It feels really good but just makes a huge mess... EVERY.... TIME.
Anyway, everything we are talking about here is purely theoretical and lies outside of our ability to measure. Inside of our universe it appears most everything obeys the laws of cause and effect. However when talking about what happened pre-universe, if there was such a thing, we have NO IDEA what the rules would be.
If you step outside of our universe you theoretically step outside of all the scientific laws we know and observe. This does not actually give any more strength the idea of deity. A lot of people seem to think that if you can just get this argument to the point of metaphysics that all of the sudden God wins. No metaphysics simply means the study of that which is beyond the physical. I have even, since I last posted, figured out that some people even refer to spiritual and metaphysical in the same light.
Whatever is outside/caused our universe may or may not be metaphysical. We really have no way of knowing if there is even anything outside of the universe. This is why this whole argument is pure mental masturbation at this point. No one can prove one damn thing about pre-universe days because we cannot measure exactly what happened with our universe at the beginning.
Saying that God being metaphysical makes him immune to needing a cause is also mental masturbation. How do you know whether or not metaphysical things need a cause? There are some things that are metaphysical though that CLEARLY do require a cause. Ideas are a great example of this. An idea starts/is formed in the mind which is a product of a physical brain.
After this idea is formed and spoken it exists in either records or the minds of people who heard it. But you cannot really measure an idea like you can a particle of matter. An idea may be stored as an electrical signal or whatnot (forgive me I am not well studied on the intricacies of the brain) but I would still classify it as metaphysical. An idea can never be destroyed only forgotten.
So in a sense an idea is eternal but it still had a cause. Just saying God does not have a cause does not prove that he didn't. In fact what if God did exist but had a cause? How can we possibly know one way or the other on it? You cannot prove a metaphysical being exists without any proof. You can believe it or perceive it but that is all that is going on. The ontological, telelogical, cosmological, moral, faith, experience, and belief in inspiration of scripture arguments do not establish anything for certain.
The only one out of ANY of those arguments that can be measured is scripture and under scrutiny it does not hold up well. The other six are products of what people feel about something not what they can prove. I am not trying to say I can prove God does not exist, that is impossible. However I can certainly say that no one has proven he does exist either which is why I am Agnostic on the issue. True knowledge on this subject based on how everything is defined is IMPOSSIBLE.
Btw - its nice to see you all again :3
