If faith works how every religion says it works......

[Thor]

[quote='Thor' pid='86820' dateline='1281712211']
Christian revivals "changed the world"? How? And what evidence do you have that supports this claim?

I guess you didn't even read Franklin's autobiography, let alone Stead on the Wales revival. Without looking it up, what did Franklin say about the effect of Whitefield's preaching?

And none of this answers my question.

Actually Fox, Wesley and Whitefield are substantially responsible for the American colonial democratic spirit, because they gave the lowly a voice no one else did (The evidence is in a recent book)

Let's say you're right... how did any of this "change the world"? At most, it changed one nation.

Ironic how Christianity was an impediment to scientific advancement for centuries, and you want to have Christianity take credit for the Enlghtenment....

Funny it didn't slow Newton down much, or Bacon or Locke when it came to "the physical and moral sciences" according to Jefferson.

Individuals are responsible for the Enlightenment. Religion had nothing to do with it.

Or were you speaking of the few cases where Catholics, totally ignorant of the Bible, slowed it down?

"FEW CASES?" The Catholic Church decreed that any teachings contrary to the Bible were to be considered heresy. This meant that anyone who promoted the idea of a sun centered solar system was risking their life. That's not "slowing down" scientific advancement, that's building a wall in front of it! And it seems you want to put all the blame for this on Catholics. And how were they "totally ignorant of the Bible"? They read the book and came to certain conclusions. The book hasn't changed. What makes their conclusions incorrect?

Not on the scribblings of ancient goat herders.

Who somehow wrote similies like Shakespeare (better ones IMO)

What does poetry have to do with fanciful tales contained in an ancient book of unknown origin?

No, I'm merely taking what the Bible says and running with it.

I noticed you do that only until it doesn't fit your agenda.

Examples?

As when I said "the demons believe and tremble" and had your argument beat, you said it was all made up anyway.

You had my argument beat with some nonsense about "demons believe and tremble"?

So you would never ask "Jesus" to give sight to all the blind people in the world?

No,

So if you were at a prayer gathering and the leader said, "Dear Lord, we ask for your mercy that all the blind people may be given sight", you wouldn't join in?

and come to think of it, what did God get for doing all those miracles for the Israelites?

Nothing. Because this never happened.

A bunch of whining.

So I guess you wouldn't pray for a sick child to have his cancer cured. Because if this happened, the kid would just whine about something later.

So no, just working miracles without demanding anything in return is foolish.

Then "Jesus" is a fool.

"Therefore, I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them." Mark 11:24

So you don't have faith in "Jesus"?

Not much, no. Just enough to believe 95% of the New Testament,

Why not 100%? And if you believe it's 5% in error, how do you know which 5% is wrong? Seems to me that the Bible is an all or nothing proposition.

and that Jesus is the only way, primarily because he hands out righteousness to those who can't meet God's righteous and just standard.

And you know this for a fact.... how?

How can YOU possibly know what is or isn't the will of Jesus?

I do my best,

Which doesn't answer the question.

unlike yourself and about 95% of a world lost in sin, religion or other useless self-help philosophies.

You think I'm "lost"? How do you arrive at that conclusion?

Gee, I don't know.... millions upon millions of converts. The thanks of all the people who were previously blind. Happiness from seeing the joy he has created. It would sure show us atheists a thing or two.

You mean atheists would all serve him and do everything he told his disciples? I think not.

How can you know what atheists would or wouldn't do if they were confronted with absolute proof that a deity does indeed exist? And even if it would have no effect on atheists at all, it would have a HUGE impact on believers.

So.... Jesus shouldn't restore sight to the blind because then people with missing limbs will "whine"? By this logic, doctors who travel to remote areas shouldn't treat anybody because the people they can't treat will whine. Yeah, if EVERYBODY can't be cured, then NOBODY should be cured!

Bad ananlogy.

Actually, it's a very good analogy.

In fact it proves my point.

How do you figure that?

The doctors are working very hard. All I have to do is pray once.

Then why don't you?

So obviously people would be demanding I pray for everything else and calling me cruel if I didn't Right? Just like you are doing. It's a riot.

You're the one who refuses to pray for blind people to be given sight.

So you accept anecdotal bullshit when it supports what you want to believe.

Like virtually all atheists reading Skeptics.org history lessons- where you read total nonsense about who led the Enlightenment, lap it up and say "we make fair and rational judgements.

Believers were instrumental in leading the Enlightenment. Christianity had nothing to do with it.

It's frightening to think you are the "rational" and "fair" members of society. It means we are more lost than even I thought. You know its amazing how many people you have to accuse of lying to make your case. I don't have to do that at all.

Where have I accused anyone of lying? I have asked for evidence to back up absurd claims.....

but when the Bible is questioned you want to impose courtroom standards?

Why not? Wouldn't that produce a far more more objective evaluation of the truth?

Okay, let's try it. You think the story of Jesus as contained in the Bible is true. He really was born of a virgin, walked on water, healed the sick with a touch of his hand, fed thousands with a basket of fish and rose up from the dead. We are now in a courtroom.

Prove it.

You would "probably" do whatever Jesus asked? Still hedging I see.

Absolutely! I don't know what crazy thing I might be asked to do. What if Jesus told me to kill somebody? Should I do it? Would you kill someone if Jesus told you to?