(March 7, 2015 at 10:47 am)watchamadoodle Wrote:(March 7, 2015 at 4:30 am)Godschild Wrote:Let me give you an example of an obvious mistake in the gospel of Matthew (18:15-22 RSV) that I would correct in the watchamadoodle Bible:
Quote:Reproving Another Who Sins
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
These verses are to establish that the one has sinned against the other, to actually leave no doubt about who's guilty.
Quote:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
This verse is to let the others know he (the guilty one) is unrepentant and if after meeting with the church he is still unrepentant, he is to be cast out as if he were a gentile or tax collector. This does not refer to the church hating him, the Jews wouldn't associate with gentiles and tax collectors.
Quote:Forgiveness
21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.[a]
Unlimited forgiveness.
Quote:So in 18:15-20 we hear practical rules for dealing with wayward church members. Basically you are to have a meeting with fellow church members and treat the naughty member like a leper. Hmm... Does that sound like Jesus to you? Jesus was criticized for associating with social outcasts, so does it make sense that he would instruct his followers to cast people out?
Yes, you're right, it's a way to deal with a unrepentant person, notice that the original verse said nothing about the guilty person being a church member and does not indicate he is. So maybe he is or he isn't.
Jesus instruction wasn't to hate the guilty but to not associate with him as the Jews wouldn't consider associating with a gentile or tax collector who by the way were Jews.
Jesus associating with the social out cast was to give them the good news, not to live his life in close association with them if they did not repent. Earlier in Matthew's gospel, Matt. 10:14 Jesus told His disciples, if a town refuses to listen to you, knock the dust off your feet and leave them to their own unrepentant ways. So, what Jesus says in these verses is in line to an earlier instruction He gave to the disciples.
Quote:Then in 18:21-22 when Jesus is asked how many times to forgive he say 7 time 70 (i.e. no limit).
Apparently 18:15-20 is a rule for the early church that was mistakenly inserted into the Gospel of Matthew by a scribe. It should be removed IMO.
Again you're correct, Jesus said unlimited forgiveness. What you have missed in these verses is his, Jesus didn't say for the guilty man not to receive forgiveness. He said that the guilty man for his refusal to repent was to be punished, Jesus expected the one offended and even the church to forgive him. Jesus wanted to keep bad examples out of the church community, He knew all the dangers of allowing one to stay within the community. No punishment would be the same as accepting what the guilty one did, sending a bad message and bad feelings through the church.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.


