Primordial Sex--Eden as Allegory

[LarissaAnn]

We're comparing ancient (biblical) morality to modern (human) morality. Ancient morality is inferior.

well morality is not the same as law. there are many stupid laws today that i'm sure you don't agree with. they had a reason for those laws and the reason lies in the culture.

The few good morals you can find in the bible, love your neighbor as yourself, do not murder (that one in particular atheists obey more than religious followers as a whole) etc. are all old news to us in todays society.

is that so? why does most society not follow these things then? do not steal- how many pirating sites are there? do not lie - how many people cheat and plagiarise? it seams your arguement is flawed.

There is nothing new that the bible can teach us that mankind doesn't already know and no more good than man doesn't already practice.

gee i wonder where it all came from? morality as we know it today can be traced back to religion whether you like it or not. and is it not true that it's better to learn from the source than hearsay?
and if the bible has nothing new to teach us, why is it morality is getting more and more rediculous in America? a criminal can sue someone when they trip and hurt themselves in their house that they've broken into..... and win. people are suing fast food resteraunts b/c they are eating their food and getting fat.

the fact of the matter is our morallity is not getting better it's getting worse. today's morality is "it's only wrong if you get caught." we need some sort of doctrine to teach people common sense b/c as we've proven over and over, society does not just know common sense.

Homosexuality is only illegal in intolerant countries. Slowly but surely gay rights are being made into laws which pisses fundie Christians right off...remind me again, aren't anger and judging both sins??

well is that so? is that why Ohio is trying to get a state constitutional ammendment to try and make it illegal? it's not intolerant in the same way it's not intolerant that bestiality, polygamy, and necrofilia is illegal.

Your theory, Chipan, that homophobia is a term invented by homosexuals means that in return religious persecution can be seen as just a farce invented by Christians to convince us that they are being hated

for the last time they are not hated. we simply say that they are wrong in their actions. we do not hold anything against what they are but what they do. the same for petifiles.

1. God's LAW for a rapist to marry his victim is not MORAL...there's your tie between the two in this scenario...in this case the bible is wrong on both counts, stupid law, fueled by no morality.

2. Are you telling me no Christian has ever stolen before in history or in today's society? You don't need the bible to tell you not to steal, there are laws against theft and plagiarism in this country and many others; idiots who choose to violate those laws deserve the consequences.

3. Again I pose the question, are you telling me Christian's have never done anything immoral throughout history or in today's society? The Crusades, The Inquisition, The Salem Witch Trials, sexual abuse of minors in Catholic churches today...Christians don't follow their own morals very well do they? Bill Gates is an Atheist look at how generous and giving he is without having religion to tell him to do it.

4. Sue over when you break into someone's house? Sue because you're getting fat from eating McDonalds? Show me your sources for both of these cases being SUCCESSFULLY won? Besides, what is more immoral, people without a religion trying to sue for stupid reasons or a woman in the middle east being stoned to death because a religious book (the quran) said to stone her? Seems like your argument is, how did you say...flawed.

5. Again your sources for Ohio trying to make BEING GAY illegal and not just gay marriage?? According to my sources in 2011 55% of the backward state said same sex marriage should be illegal, not the practice of homosexuality itself. No way would the United States government allow the passing of a law making being gay illegal....what would the punishment be then Mr. Christian? Jail? Traditional Christian route perhaps with execution?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Ohio
FURTHERMORE, in 2011 the United States made it legal for gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military AND a poll in May said that 53% of American's as a whole supported gay marriage, compared to just last year when only 44% ...point being support for gay marriage and rights are raising.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/147662/first-...riage.aspx

[Jackalope]

well i meant on the fact that in order to understand what's in the torah you must look at the culture at the time and the original hebrew word definitions

I make it a point to not offer agreement to people who dodge simple questions.

It's not a hard question, though I understand that it might be a difficult one considering the corner you've managed to paint yourself into. Perhaps without even realizing it.

[chi pan]

God's LAW for a rapist to marry his victim is not MORAL

like i said, you must take the culture into account in order to deturmine this which you have not done.

Are you telling me no Christian has EVER stolen before in history or in today's society?

quite the contrary i believe they have and i believe they knew it was wrong. though i believe there are many who see nothing wrong with it. this is the problem i'm addressing. all have sinned however how can someone do what's right when they don't know what's right?

The Crusades, The Inquisition, The Salem Witch Trials, sexual abuse of minors in Catholic churches today

there are always those who will abuse scripture for evil purposes, however if not religion it will be something else. they will use politics, play the blame card, use fear, hate... wars and such happen inevitably and there is not much we can do about it other than to convince others of what's right.

Christians don't follow their own morals very well do they?

well all you have to do to know that is look at Romans 3:23. there's a difference in sinning and not knowing the difference. yes, it's wrong to sin; however no one is perfect and no one can be perfect morally in every way.

Bill Gates is an Atheist look at how generous and giving he is without having the bible tell him to do it.

yes but he also has so much money he doesn't know what to do with it. you can give examples of how people can do good things reguardless of their religous views but i'm looking at majority.

let me do some research on the court rulings and get back to you

[Jackalope]

God's LAW for a rapist to marry his victim is not MORAL

like i said, you must take the culture into account in order to deturmine this which you have not done.

If it's god's law then it isn't a product of the culture. How could it be? Did god poll the Israelites to see what they thought before he decided what his law was going to be?

Seriously, you are arguing out of both sides of your mouth. You're either confused or intellectually dishonest.

[chi pan]

If it's god's law then it isn't a product of the culture.

as most of the passages are God speaking to the jews, yes, it is a product of culture.

[Jackalope]

If it's god's law then it isn't a product of the culture.

as most of the passages are God speaking to the jews, yes, it is a product of culture.

Ah. So you are confused.

I will say this - you're the first theist I am aware of that claimed that god's opinion on law was swayed by cultural concerns.

---

Edited to add: If this is the case, then no theist can claim that god's law is objective or absolute. And since it's an observed fact that a great many of them do in fact do so, it's pretty foolish to claim that cultural influences had anything to do with it.

Unless, of course, the law was devised by men and the little chit chat Moses had with god was fiction.

[LarissaAnn]

God's LAW for a rapist to marry his victim is not MORAL

like i said, you must take the culture into account in order to deturmine this which you have not done.

Are you telling me no Christian has EVER stolen before in history or in today's society?

quite the contrary i believe they have and i believe they knew it was wrong. though i believe there are many who see nothing wrong with it. this is the problem i'm addressing. all have sinned however how can someone do what's right when they don't know what's right?

The Crusades, The Inquisition, The Salem Witch Trials, sexual abuse of minors in Catholic churches today

there are always those who will abuse scripture for evil purposes, however if not religion it will be something else. they will use politics, play the blame card, use fear, hate... wars and such happen inevitably and there is not much we can do about it other than to convince others of what's right.

Christians don't follow their own morals very well do they?

well all you have to do to know that is look at Romans 3:23. there's a difference in sinning and not knowing the difference. yes, it's wrong to sin; however no one is perfect and no one can be perfect morally in every way.

Bill Gates is an Atheist look at how generous and giving he is without having the bible tell him to do it.

yes but he also has so much money he doesn't know what to do with it. you can give examples of how people can do good things reguardless of their religous views but i'm looking at majority.

let me do some research on the court rulings and get back to you

1. I'm an avid history fan so yes I take the culture into account, the barbaric, uncivilized culture that biblical times were...and the book containing their god who supported it. IF the bible is set for such distant times why should it be taken seriously today if it was written for the people 2000 years ago. What does God have to say about rape victims today? Does he still think they should be the wives of their rapists if not where are your sources on paper not personal observation that he has changed his mind?

2. The problem you were addressing is that without the bible people have begun to steal more in today's society...I said that Christians have had the bible for years but know it says "don't steal" didn't stop them...is that not the same thing as non believers not listening to a law. Why are Christians so much more pardonable?

3. "There are always those who will abuse scriptures for evil purpose" And THAT is proof why religion does more harm than good...MILLIONS have been killed because of religion and today look at 9/11 and in a society where we now have nuclear weapons and tell me thats religious danger is not getting worse.

4. So an Atheist is damned if he has money and damned if he gives it away to charities? Loving your neighbor as yourself played out very well there didn't it? The Catholic church sits on BILLIONS that it could donate to the poor and unfortunate all over the world...instead it has gold encrusted robes, fancy palaces, Mercedes Pope-mobiles, etc. etc.

You still didn't answer my question. If making gay illegal is not intolerance as you say [I quote: it's not intolerant in the same way it's not intolerant that bestiality, polygamy, and necrofilia is illegal] then what do you think the fitting punishment should be? For people who've never done any personal harm to you at all. Do you agree with your bible that they should be executed?

[Jackalope]

The Catholic church sits on BILLIONS that it could donate to the poor and unfortunate all over the world.

Yeah, they're saving it for future child sex abuse settlements, I'm sure.

[Barre]

you look way too hard at this, not everything is symbolic in the bible. here's some things- God said not to eat from the tree at all, not to wait till the proper moment. the snake represents a deciever, which is how calling someone a snake originated. eve got pregnant too early? adam had his first son at the age of 130. his name was Seth. i don't understand if your asking a question or just saying what's on your mind

However did you arrive at the conclusion that I think "everything in the Bible is symbolic?"

[Jackalope]

However did you arrive at the conclusion that I think "everything in the Bible is symbolic?"

Based on his other dubious contributions here, I'm thinking he's pretty much making things up as he goes along.