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(October 1, 2012 at 9:52 pm)Godschild Wrote: 1. God did not create man with original sin, this came only after Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Now we are all born with a sin nature ie. we will sin because the ability to sin is necessarily part of us.
So, god told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge of ggod and evil. After eating from the tree, there is a marked change in both of them. Conclusion: the fruit changed them by giving thm knowledge of good and evil. Implications: They did not have knowledge of good and evil before, thus they did not know right from wrong. To top it all off god lets the devil mess with them. He set them up to fail so he would have an excuse to make them wordhip him.
Godschild Wrote:3. Jesus did not kill Himself, though He did allow it to happen, there are scriptures that shows how he could have prevented it. All sin was placed on Him so that we could be forgiven by choosing Christ as our savior. For those who choose not to receive Him as savior, their sins will not be forgiven and they will go before God the Father for judgement. So the condemned you spoke of, are those who do not believe in what Christ did for them.
It was all part of god's plan to kill Jesus (who was also god). Why did he even need to get Jesus killed in the first place? He's god, couldn't he have used a better method? Also, he says he could have prevented it, but this is the one surefire time that he could not have faked/lied about a miracle and he doesn't come through. Why die, rather than free himself? If he proved himself to be god, people wouldn't have taken so long to embrace christianity.
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
(October 1, 2012 at 9:52 pm)Godschild Wrote: 1. God did not create man with original sin, this came only after Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Now we are all born with a sin nature ie. we will sin because the ability to sin is necessarily part of us.
Ds Wrote:So, god told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge of ggod and evil. After eating from the tree, there is a marked change in both of them. Conclusion: the fruit changed them by giving thm knowledge of good and evil. Implications: They did not have knowledge of good and evil before, thus they did not know right from wrong. To top it all off god lets the devil mess with them. He set them up to fail so he would have an excuse to make them wordhip him.
Knowing your disobeying has nothing to do with good and evil necessarily, small children will knowingly disobey their parents, you can't necessarily call that doing or have knowledge of doing evil. Adam and Eve met with God in the cool of the evening to worship Him, so the act of disobedience had nothing to do with worship. Lucifer worshiped God before he fell, so your theory fails. God allowed them to be tempted, yes, because He desired that they love Him of their own free will, not because He kept Lucifer away, who by the way they did not know existed.
Godschild Wrote:3. Jesus did not kill Himself, though He did allow it to happen, there are scriptures that shows how he could have prevented it. All sin was placed on Him so that we could be forgiven by choosing Christ as our savior. For those who choose not to receive Him as savior, their sins will not be forgiven and they will go before God the Father for judgement. So the condemned you spoke of, are those who do not believe in what Christ did for them.
Ds Wrote:It was all part of god's plan to kill Jesus (who was also god). Why did he even need to get Jesus killed in the first place? He's god, couldn't he have used a better method? Also, he says he could have prevented it, but this is the one surefire time that he could not have faked/lied about a miracle and he doesn't come through. Why die, rather than free himself? If he proved himself to be god, people wouldn't have taken so long to embrace christianity.
Jesus volunteered to die for the sins of man before He even created them. Don't you think that if there was any other way it would have been done, the shedding of His blood unto death was the only way, the perfect Lamb of God had to surrender His life in this manner to satisfy God's judgement of sin. God will judge all the unforgiven, those who choose Christ as their savior are already forgiven, thus we have no judgement coming from the Father.
If Christ had not given up His life on the cross there would have been no salvation, Christ could have forsaken us and lived or loved us and die. I personally am glad He chose to love us. If Christ had not died there would be no such thing as Christianity, yes, He would have accomplished another miracle, but like Jesus told many, "even though I do many miracles before you, you still do not believe," so one more miracle would have made no difference.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Well, I don't understand how vicarious scapegoating relieves me of my responsibility, but we've been here before. (I've got a graphic where a comedian is asking how this works, which I can't find, but which concludes with the line, "I hit my foot with a shovel for your mortgage. How does that work?")
Despite the necropost, I did nab one good link from the OP as a result, so, kudos.
October 2, 2012 at 11:31 am (This post was last modified: October 2, 2012 at 11:31 am by The Grand Nudger.)
If there were any other way GC? Who, praytell, must have determined that a blood sacrifice via scapegoat was going to be the only way( however the fuck it works being besides the point)? I like this "god" cocksucker less everytime one of the faithful opens their mouth to explain anything.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(October 2, 2012 at 2:19 am)Godschild Wrote: Knowing your disobeying has nothing to do with good and evil necessarily, small children will knowingly disobey their parents, you can't necessarily call that doing or have knowledge of doing evil. Adam and Eve met with God in the cool of the evening to worship Him, so the act of disobedience had nothing to do with worship. Lucifer worshiped God before he fell, so your theory fails. God allowed them to be tempted, yes, because He desired that they love Him of their own free will, not because He kept Lucifer away, who by the way they did not know existed.
Okay, the worship part fails, but Lucifer knew the difference between good and evil. Keep in mind that Adam and Eve are less than 24 hour old and have no conscience. Here's a hypothetical scenario:
You have a two-year old child (about the same level of moral progression as the newborn Adam and Eve) and you tell him not to eat cookies, but you don't say why. Another person comes into the room and gives the kid a cookie, saying that its okay to eat cookies. The kid then eats the cookie. You return to find the cookie eaten and proceed to kick your child out of the house, after badly abusing him (childbirth pains, etc. Curses inflicted on Adam and Eve by god). You did this because you loved him, and he needed to learn his lesson for disobedience. Ethical? NO!
Godschild Wrote:Jesus volunteered to die for the sins of man before He even created them. Don't you think that if there was any other way it would have been done, the shedding of His blood unto death was the only way, the perfect Lamb of God had to surrender His life in this manner to satisfy God's judgement of sin. God will judge all the unforgiven, those who choose Christ as their savior are already forgiven, thus we have no judgement coming from the Father.
If Christ had not given up His life on the cross there would have been no salvation, Christ could have forsaken us and lived or loved us and die. I personally am glad He chose to love us. If Christ had not died there would be no such thing as Christianity, yes, He would have accomplished another miracle, but like Jesus told many, "even though I do many miracles before you, you still do not believe," so one more miracle would have made no difference.
If Jesus volunteerd, then why did he say: Mark 15:34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)? (The part in parenthesis was part of the original quote I found).
I also find it hard to believe that sacrificing Jesus was the only way. If god could not accomplish it in another way, the how is he all-powerful? Why couldn't we just accept god, why do we need a savior?
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
October 2, 2012 at 12:41 pm (This post was last modified: October 2, 2012 at 12:43 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-Why do we need a savior (and specifically, why this kind)
Because the people who proposed this garbage were firm believers in sympathetic ritual and fate. If you did enough horrible things to a proxy you could lay away all the horrible things (presumably) coming your way and escape that fate. The idea of this particular christ is nothing less than the elevation of a magic fucking spell (that people used to perform in their backyards..true redneck hocus pocus) to religious tradition and dogma.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Knowing your disobeying has nothing to do with good and evil necessarily, small children will knowingly disobey their parents, you can't necessarily call that doing or have knowledge of doing evil. Adam and Eve met with God in the cool of the evening to worship Him, so the act of disobedience had nothing to do with worship. Lucifer worshiped God before he fell, so your theory fails. God allowed them to be tempted, yes, because He desired that they love Him of their own free will, not because He kept Lucifer away, who by the way they did not know existed.
Ds Wrote:Okay, the worship part fails, but Lucifer knew the difference between good and evil. Keep in mind that Adam and Eve are less than 24 hour old and have no conscience. Here's a hypothetical scenario:
You have a two-year old child (about the same level of moral progression as the newborn Adam and Eve) and you tell him not to eat cookies, but you don't say why. Another person comes into the room and gives the kid a cookie, saying that its okay to eat cookies. The kid then eats the cookie. You return to find the cookie eaten and proceed to kick your child out of the house, after badly abusing him (childbirth pains, etc. Curses inflicted on Adam and Eve by god). You did this because you loved him, and he needed to learn his lesson for disobedience. Ethical? NO!
Yes Lucifer knew right from wrong and he had the knowledge of good and evil even before his fall from grace. I do not see what that has to do with Adam and Eve's fall other than Lucifer knowing what could possibly work on them. He actually tempted them with the very same reasoning that caused his fall ie. pride. Next, what makes you believe that Adam and Eve were less than 24 hours old, that is not biblical. Scripture says that God would come and walk with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening, they spent time with God every day, and they did so as complete equals. We do not know how long they lived in the Garden, but because of what I stated above and other scriptures I believe it could have been thousands of years, we just do not know the exact amount of time. Next, one reason I stated all this is to show you that Adam and Eve were mature adults without the knowledge of good and evil, they had one commandment to live by, not to eat the fruit of the tree of good and evil. They did not have any idea as to what the tree represented, until Lucifer deceived them about what it meant to eat of that fruit. So your premise with the 2 year old doesn't work, the two year old doesn't have a mature mind, nor was the commandment in your premise given by God. God told Adam and Eve why they should not eat of the fruit, they would surely die. The day they did they died spiritually and several hundred years later the died physically. God did not lie to them, Lucifer did, they did not become as God, God is immortal, they became mortal, they gave up their immortality by disobeying God's one command.
Here's what separates Adam and Eve's situation from the 2 year old child, the 2 year old already has a sin nature, Adam and Eve did not until they chose to disobey God. Also the Garden was a sanctuary for man and God to meet, not just a place to live, God kicked them out because they violated a sacred place with sin, he was not going to allow them to live in a place of righteousness after they became creatures of sin.
Godschild Wrote:Jesus volunteered to die for the sins of man before He even created them. Don't you think that if there was any other way it would have been done, the shedding of His blood unto death was the only way, the perfect Lamb of God had to surrender His life in this manner to satisfy God's judgement of sin. God will judge all the unforgiven, those who choose Christ as their savior are already forgiven, thus we have no judgement coming from the Father.
If Christ had not given up His life on the cross there would have been no salvation, Christ could have forsaken us and lived or loved us and die. I personally am glad He chose to love us. If Christ had not died there would be no such thing as Christianity, yes, He would have accomplished another miracle, but like Jesus told many, "even though I do many miracles before you, you still do not believe," so one more miracle would have made no difference.
Ds Wrote:If Jesus volunteerd, then why did he say: Mark 15:34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)? (The part in parenthesis was part of the original quote I found).
Because God the Father had turned His back upon Jesus, the Father was always with His Son, but when Jesus had all the sins of the world placed upon Him the Father had to turn away from Him, God the Father can not and will not be in the presents of sin. Christ knew this would happen when He volunteered, however as a man Jesus would naturally cry out. Many soldiers when they are dying cry out for their mothers, this is part of being human, and Jesus came to us as a man.
Ds Wrote:I also find it hard to believe that sacrificing Jesus was the only way. If god could not accomplish it in another way, the how is he all-powerful? Why couldn't we just accept god, why do we need a savior?
We need a savior to be redeemed from our sin, and without the shedding of blood there is no redemption, this is what God has set up from the beginning, so by this there is no other way. Again don't you think if there was another way God would have done so. Even Jesus when praying the night He was arrested said,"Father if there is any other way could you take this cup away from Me, but not My will but thy will be done." So Jesus knew the horrible thing He was getting ready to endure.
You know no matter what God had done to redeem us there would be those who would not want to accept it, they just do not want anything to do with God. For those of us who do accept what God has done to redeem us, we cherish it, because it cost Him so much and it was done for us even though we did not deserve His grace.
I mentioned above that God said that the shedding of blood was the only way for redemption of sin and that it was this way from the beginning. Well there is a reason for it and Adam and Eve's disobedience was the cause, when God found them hiding in the Garden they had said they were naked, understanding good and evil. God clothed them with animal skins, God had to kill animals and make clothing to cover their nakedness, in doing this blood was shed because of sin, the first deaths occurred because of sin and the innocent died first. The covering of Adam and Eve's nakedness with the death of innocent animals is representative of the covering of sin with blood from the innocent perfect Lamb of God, know you know exactly why Jesus had to give up His life, only innocent blood from the perfect Lamb could possibly save man.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
October 2, 2012 at 8:51 pm (This post was last modified: October 2, 2012 at 8:54 pm by Darkstar.)
(October 2, 2012 at 5:17 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes Lucifer knew right from wrong and he had the knowledge of good and evil even before his fall from grace. I do not see what that has to do with Adam and Eve's fall other than Lucifer knowing what could possibly work on them. He actually tempted them with the very same reasoning that caused his fall ie. pride. Next, what makes you believe that Adam and Eve were less than 24 hours old, that is not biblical. Scripture says that God would come and walk with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening, they spent time with God every day, and they did so as complete equals. We do not know how long they lived in the Garden, but because of what I stated above and other scriptures I believe it could have been thousands of years, we just do not know the exact amount of time. Next, one reason I stated all this is to show you that Adam and Eve were mature adults without the knowledge of good and evil, they had one commandment to live by, not to eat the fruit of the tree of good and evil. They did not have any idea as to what the tree represented, until Lucifer deceived them about what it meant to eat of that fruit. So your premise with the 2 year old doesn't work, the two year old doesn't have a mature mind, nor was the commandment in your premise given by God. God told Adam and Eve why they should not eat of the fruit, they would surely die. The day they did they died spiritually and several hundred years later the died physically. God did not lie to them, Lucifer did, they did not become as God, God is immortal, they became mortal, they gave up their immortality by disobeying God's one command.
Here's what separates Adam and Eve's situation from the 2 year old child, the 2 year old already has a sin nature, Adam and Eve did not until they chose to disobey God. Also the Garden was a sanctuary for man and God to meet, not just a place to live, God kicked them out because they violated a sacred place with sin, he was not going to allow them to live in a place of righteousness after they became creatures of sin.
Okay, I realize that they were likely older than 24 hours (for some reason I always assumed that it was the same day...). Yes, the two year old was not given the command by god, but what is a parent to a two year old? That is the greatest thing they know. They still did not know right from wrong, and actually Lucifer told them the truth about the fruit.
Genesis 3:4-5 "You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
They learned the difference between good and evil, like god knows. He said they would not certainly die, not they would certainly not die.
They still did not know right from wrong, so while they wouldn have been smarter than the two year old, their moral compass would be equally developed, regardless of their age. Also, you say that the two year old already has a sin nature. I don't know what you mean by this. If Adam and Eve could last a long time without eating the fruit, then why did god let Lucifer tempt them? Or, why did he not give them a conscience to begin with. He didn't merely kick them out, he cursed them as well (childbirth pains, etc.)
Godschild Wrote:Because God the Father had turned His back upon Jesus, the Father was always with His Son, but when Jesus had all the sins of the world placed upon Him the Father had to turn away from Him, God the Father can not and will not be in the presents of sin. Christ knew this would happen when He volunteered, however as a man Jesus would naturally cry out. Many soldiers when they are dying cry out for their mothers, this is part of being human, and Jesus came to us as a man.
(bolding added)
If god cannot be in the prescence of sin, then he is not omnipresent
Godschild Wrote:We need a savior to be redeemed from our sin, and without the shedding of blood there is no redemption, this is what God has set up from the beginning, so by this there is no other way. Again don't you think if there was another way God would have done so. Even Jesus when praying the night He was arrested said,"Father if there is any other way could you take this cup away from Me, but not My will but thy will be done." So Jesus knew the horrible thing He was getting ready to endure.
You know no matter what God had done to redeem us there would be those who would not want to accept it, they just do not want anything to do with God. For those of us who do accept what God has done to redeem us, we cherish it, because it cost Him so much and it was done for us even though we did not deserve His grace.
I mentioned above that God said that the shedding of blood was the only way for redemption of sin and that it was this way from the beginning. Well there is a reason for it and Adam and Eve's disobedience was the cause, when God found them hiding in the Garden they had said they were naked, understanding good and evil.God clothed them with animal skins, God had to kill animals and make clothing to cover their nakedness, in doing this blood was shed because of sin, the first deaths occurred because of sin and the innocent died first. The covering of Adam and Eve's nakedness with the death of innocent animals is representative of the covering of sin with blood from the innocent perfect Lamb of God, know you know exactly why Jesus had to give up His life, only innocent blood from the perfect Lamb could possibly save man.
(bolding added) (each bolded passage corresponds to one point)
1. God cannot change the rules, even temporarily? Then he is not omnipotent.
2. Yeah, which is one of the numerous reasons I find the story hard to believe.
3. He was dead for three days...and he's otherwise immortal. Not much of a sacrifice...
4. The reason that god cursed humanity was because Adam and Eve grew a conscience... The whole sacrifice was just theatrics to give us a 'martyr'.
5. It's a sad day when an omnipotent being needs to personally kill animals and skin them for clothing when he could just poof it into existence...well, then he wouldn't be able to shame humanity properly, I guess (kind of a weak excuse). Not to mention, a couple random animals' deaths are equivalent to the death of the son of god? (Well, he was ressurected after only three days. NOw, I know he was hurt in the process of being killed, but he's god, so to him it would be like a painful surgery from which you become immortal) Who wants to bet that jews suffered more during the holocaust than Jesus ever did?
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
(October 2, 2012 at 5:17 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes Lucifer knew right from wrong and he had the knowledge of good and evil even before his fall from grace. I do not see what that has to do with Adam and Eve's fall other than Lucifer knowing what could possibly work on them. He actually tempted them with the very same reasoning that caused his fall ie. pride. Next, what makes you believe that Adam and Eve were less than 24 hours old, that is not biblical. Scripture says that God would come and walk with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening, they spent time with God every day, and they did so as complete equals. We do not know how long they lived in the Garden, but because of what I stated above and other scriptures I believe it could have been thousands of years, we just do not know the exact amount of time. Next, one reason I stated all this is to show you that Adam and Eve were mature adults without the knowledge of good and evil, they had one commandment to live by, not to eat the fruit of the tree of good and evil. They did not have any idea as to what the tree represented, until Lucifer deceived them about what it meant to eat of that fruit. So your premise with the 2 year old doesn't work, the two year old doesn't have a mature mind, nor was the commandment in your premise given by God. God told Adam and Eve why they should not eat of the fruit, they would surely die. The day they did they died spiritually and several hundred years later the died physically. God did not lie to them, Lucifer did, they did not become as God, God is immortal, they became mortal, they gave up their immortality by disobeying God's one command.
Here's what separates Adam and Eve's situation from the 2 year old child, the 2 year old already has a sin nature, Adam and Eve did not until they chose to disobey God. Also the Garden was a sanctuary for man and God to meet, not just a place to live, God kicked them out because they violated a sacred place with sin, he was not going to allow them to live in a place of righteousness after they became creatures of sin.
Ds Wrote:Okay, I realize that they were likely older than 24 hours (for some reason I always assumed that it was the same day...). Yes, the two year old was not given the command by god, but what is a parent to a two year old? That is the greatest thing they know.
The greatest thing they know still is not God, did you really read what I stated, it seems that you did not by your response. Adam and Eve were created fully aware and knowing right from wrong, they had no learning curve to go through. Two year old children have miles to go, if mom and dad kicked them out of the house they could not survive. Adam and Eve were fully prepared to survive outside of the Garden.
Ds Wrote:They still did not know right from wrong, and actually Lucifer told them the truth about the fruit.
Genesis 3:4-5 "You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
They learned the difference between good and evil, like god knows. He said they would not certainly die, not they would certainly not die.
They still did not know right from wrong, so while they wouldn have been smarter than the two year old, their moral compass would be equally developed, regardless of their age. Also, you say that the two year old already has a sin nature. I don't know what you mean by this. If Adam and Eve could last a long time without eating the fruit, then why did god let Lucifer tempt them? Or, why did he not give them a conscience to begin with. He didn't merely kick them out, he cursed them as well (childbirth pains, etc.)
How can you say they did not know the difference between right and wrong, not having the knowledge of good and evil does not necessarily say they did not know the difference between right and wrong. I thought the idea of the 2 year old child knowing right from wrong, yet not understanding good and evil was understood as a correct idea, related to Adam and Eve. Gen. 3:3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden,... Eve says this to the serpent, Gen 2:16... "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17) but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." This is the commandment from God. God gave this commandment to them and they understand there would be consequences if they did not obey, thus knowing the difference between right and wrong.
Lucifer did lie to them, they did die, Lucifer said they would not. Lucifer said they would be like God, they were punished by God, so how is it they were anything like God. God still lives they are dead, they come under God's judgement, God will never be judged by a superior being, they are sinners God is righteous, do I need to say more. Lucifer lied to them, working on their pride and they fell for his deception. As I said previously they died that every day, it was a spiritual death, the physical death came later.
God kicked them out of the Garden (sanctuary) and also punished (cursed) them for ruining the perfect creation, personally I believe they got off light, considering what God could have done.
God allowed Lucifer to tempt them because of love, like I said previously (are you sure you have read what I wrote) God wanted Adam and Eve to love Him through their obedience, that is to chose to obey His commandment over falling to Lucifer's deception. This is no different than what parents want from their children. Lucifer lost his love for God and all that goes with loving Him, and Lucifer wanted all of God's creation to suffer along with him.
Godschild Wrote:Because God the Father had turned His back upon Jesus, the Father was always with His Son, but when Jesus had all the sins of the world placed upon Him the Father had to turn away from Him, God the Father can not and will not be in the presents of sin. Christ knew this would happen when He volunteered, however as a man Jesus would naturally cry out. Many soldiers when they are dying cry out for their mothers, this is part of being human, and Jesus came to us as a man.
(bolding added)
Ds Wrote:If god cannot be in the prescence of sin, then he is not omnipresent
Ok, let's make this simpler, God will not associate with the sinful, does this clear up things. God's omnipresent, which means He can be in all places all the time if He chooses to.
Godschild Wrote:We need a savior to be redeemed from our sin, and without the shedding of blood there is no redemption, this is what God has set up from the beginning, so by this there is no other way. Again don't you think if there was another way God would have done so. Even Jesus when praying the night He was arrested said,"Father if there is any other way could you take this cup away from Me, but not My will but thy will be done." So Jesus knew the horrible thing He was getting ready to endure.
You know no matter what God had done to redeem us there would be those who would not want to accept it, they just do not want anything to do with God. For those of us who do accept what God has done to redeem us, we cherish it, because it cost Him so much and it was done for us even though we did not deserve His grace.
I mentioned above that God said that the shedding of blood was the only way for redemption of sin and that it was this way from the beginning. Well there is a reason for it and Adam and Eve's disobedience was the cause, when God found them hiding in the Garden they had said they were naked, understanding good and evil.God clothed them with animal skins, God had to kill animals and make clothing to cover their nakedness, in doing this blood was shed because of sin, the first deaths occurred because of sin and the innocent died first. The covering of Adam and Eve's nakedness with the death of innocent animals is representative of the covering of sin with blood from the innocent perfect Lamb of God, know you know exactly why Jesus had to give up His life, only innocent blood from the perfect Lamb could possibly save man.
Ds Wrote:(bolding added) (each bolded passage corresponds to one point)
1. God cannot change the rules, even temporarily? Then he is not omnipotent.
God never changes and because He knew before creation what His plan was He has never changed anything. An omniscient being will have the perfect plan from the beginning, God has never been surprised by anything anyone has ever done.
Ds Wrote:2. Yeah, which is one of the numerous reasons I find the story hard to believe.
You find the story hard to believe because an omniscient being foresaw the only plan for salvation that would satisfy His will. That does not make sense to me.
Ds Wrote:3. He was dead for three days...and he's otherwise immortal. Not much of a sacrifice...
Now you're starting to state the sad questions of others, please can you do better than that. This is a tired old question most Christians are tired of answering. When Christ left heaven He gave up more than you or I could ever imagine. He lived in the glory of Heaven and was all powerful, when He left heaven He had to suffer through the same things sinful man did, Christ was perfect and did not deserve to suffer our lives. He also gave up all His powers, the miracles He did were through the Father's power. This analogy is not the best but should suffice, it would be like you giving up your life that you have now to live as an ant, your only purpose is to work to survive, no pleasures, no love, little if any rest, only a single minded purpose, work, work, work. Christ had to suffer death, when He should not had to, because of us, He should of never had to taste the horrors of death, especially the one he suffered. Christ's death was due to carrying all the burdens of our sins, our sinless God suffered a death that only we should have, we committed the crimes against God, and He has to pay for it so we can be redeemed. That's like a criminal going to court and found guilty and the judge has to do the time.
Ds Wrote:4. The reason that god cursed humanity was because Adam and Eve grew a conscience... The whole sacrifice was just theatrics to give us a 'martyr'.
Here's another one of those old quotes that make no reasonable sense, first off Adam and Eve did not grow a conscience, they sinned against God through disobedience, they understood what they had done when they ate the fruit and became knowledgeable of good and evil, God found them hiding from Him, this should tell you how much they regretted what they did, and just like kids they tried to blame others for their mistake. God the Father did not want His Son to be a martyr, being a martyr necessarily includes terrible suffering, God would have much rather had His creation to stay perfect. Man screwed that up royally, and God's love allowed for that very thing. What a sad lot we are.
Ds Wrote:5. It's a sad day when an omnipotent being needs to personally kill animals and skin them for clothing when he could just poof it into existence...well, then he wouldn't be able to shame humanity properly, I guess (kind of a weak excuse). Not to mention, a couple random animals' deaths are equivalent to the death of the son of god? (Well, he was ressurected after only three days. NOw, I know he was hurt in the process of being killed, but he's god, so to him it would be like a painful surgery from which you become immortal) Who wants to bet that jews suffered more during the holocaust than Jesus ever did?
No one will ever suffer the death Christ did and only a foolish man would think so. Christ, as the man Jesus took all the sin past, present and future upon Himself, can you even imagine what that horror would be like, tell me what that kind of guilt would be like upon a person.
God did not need to kill those animals, He could have wiped Adam and Eve off the face of the earth. His love for them and future people is what brought this about, it is what had to happen. By the way poof, really, that sounds a bit childish. The sacrifice of the animals was a fore shadowing of what was to be, what had to be, the death of Christ to redeem man kind. Have you ever studied scriptures to find out what's in them or are you the follow the leader type and accept what ever any nonbeliever says whether it be true or not.
There were many more things I brought up why did you stick with the questions and quotes that most nonbelievers do, are you not interested in being your own person, making your own decisions. Are you only interested in discrediting God or are you looking for truths in life.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(October 2, 2012 at 5:17 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes Lucifer knew right from wrong and he had the knowledge of good and evil even before his fall from grace. I do not see what that has to do with Adam and Eve's fall other than Lucifer knowing what could possibly work on them. He actually tempted them with the very same reasoning that caused his fall ie. pride. Next, what makes you believe that Adam and Eve were less than 24 hours old, that is not biblical. Scripture says that God would come and walk with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening, they spent time with God every day, and they did so as complete equals. We do not know how long they lived in the Garden, but because of what I stated above and other scriptures I believe it could have been thousands of years, we just do not know the exact amount of time. Next, one reason I stated all this is to show you that Adam and Eve were mature adults without the knowledge of good and evil, they had one commandment to live by, not to eat the fruit of the tree of good and evil. They did not have any idea as to what the tree represented, until Lucifer deceived them about what it meant to eat of that fruit. So your premise with the 2 year old doesn't work, the two year old doesn't have a mature mind, nor was the commandment in your premise given by God. God told Adam and Eve why they should not eat of the fruit, they would surely die. The day they did they died spiritually and several hundred years later the died physically. God did not lie to them, Lucifer did, they did not become as God, God is immortal, they became mortal, they gave up their immortality by disobeying God's one command.
Here's what separates Adam and Eve's situation from the 2 year old child, the 2 year old already has a sin nature, Adam and Eve did not until they chose to disobey God. Also the Garden was a sanctuary for man and God to meet, not just a place to live, God kicked them out because they violated a sacred place with sin, he was not going to allow them to live in a place of righteousness after they became creatures of sin.
Ds Wrote:Okay, I realize that they were likely older than 24 hours (for some reason I always assumed that it was the same day...). Yes, the two year old was not given the command by god, but what is a parent to a two year old? That is the greatest thing they know.
The greatest thing they know still is not God, did you really read what I stated, it seems that you did not by your response. Adam and Eve were created fully aware and knowing right from wrong, they had no learning curve to go through. Two year old children have miles to go, if mom and dad kicked them out of the house they could not survive. Adam and Eve were fully prepared to survive outside of the Garden.
Ds Wrote:They still did not know right from wrong, and actually Lucifer told them the truth about the fruit.
Genesis 3:4-5 "You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
They learned the difference between good and evil, like god knows. He said they would not certainly die, not they would certainly not die.
They still did not know right from wrong, so while they wouldn have been smarter than the two year old, their moral compass would be equally developed, regardless of their age. Also, you say that the two year old already has a sin nature. I don't know what you mean by this. If Adam and Eve could last a long time without eating the fruit, then why did god let Lucifer tempt them? Or, why did he not give them a conscience to begin with. He didn't merely kick them out, he cursed them as well (childbirth pains, etc.)
How can you say they did not know the difference between right and wrong, not having the knowledge of good and evil does not necessarily say they did not know the difference between right and wrong. I thought the idea of the 2 year old child knowing right from wrong, yet not understanding good and evil was understood as a correct idea, related to Adam and Eve. Gen. 3:3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden,... Eve says this to the serpent, Gen 2:16... "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17) but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." This is the commandment from God. God gave this commandment to them and they understand there would be consequences if they did not obey, thus knowing the difference between right and wrong.
Lucifer did lie to them, they did die, Lucifer said they would not. Lucifer said they would be like God, they were punished by God, so how is it they were anything like God. God still lives they are dead, they come under God's judgement, God will never be judged by a superior being, they are sinners God is righteous, do I need to say more. Lucifer lied to them, working on their pride and they fell for his deception. As I said previously they died that every day, it was a spiritual death, the physical death came later.
God kicked them out of the Garden (sanctuary) and also punished (cursed) them for ruining the perfect creation, personally I believe they got off light, considering what God could have done.
God allowed Lucifer to tempt them because of love, like I said previously (are you sure you have read what I wrote) God wanted Adam and Eve to love Him through their obedience, that is to chose to obey His commandment over falling to Lucifer's deception. This is no different than what parents want from their children. Lucifer lost his love for God and all that goes with loving Him, and Lucifer wanted all of God's creation to suffer along with him.
Godschild Wrote:Because God the Father had turned His back upon Jesus, the Father was always with His Son, but when Jesus had all the sins of the world placed upon Him the Father had to turn away from Him, God the Father can not and will not be in the presents of sin. Christ knew this would happen when He volunteered, however as a man Jesus would naturally cry out. Many soldiers when they are dying cry out for their mothers, this is part of being human, and Jesus came to us as a man.
(bolding added)
Ds Wrote:If god cannot be in the prescence of sin, then he is not omnipresent
Ok, let's make this simpler, God will not associate with the sinful, does this clear up things. God's omnipresent, which means He can be in all places all the time if He chooses to.
Godschild Wrote:We need a savior to be redeemed from our sin, and without the shedding of blood there is no redemption, this is what God has set up from the beginning, so by this there is no other way. Again don't you think if there was another way God would have done so. Even Jesus when praying the night He was arrested said,"Father if there is any other way could you take this cup away from Me, but not My will but thy will be done." So Jesus knew the horrible thing He was getting ready to endure.
You know no matter what God had done to redeem us there would be those who would not want to accept it, they just do not want anything to do with God. For those of us who do accept what God has done to redeem us, we cherish it, because it cost Him so much and it was done for us even though we did not deserve His grace.
I mentioned above that God said that the shedding of blood was the only way for redemption of sin and that it was this way from the beginning. Well there is a reason for it and Adam and Eve's disobedience was the cause, when God found them hiding in the Garden they had said they were naked, understanding good and evil.God clothed them with animal skins, God had to kill animals and make clothing to cover their nakedness, in doing this blood was shed because of sin, the first deaths occurred because of sin and the innocent died first. The covering of Adam and Eve's nakedness with the death of innocent animals is representative of the covering of sin with blood from the innocent perfect Lamb of God, know you know exactly why Jesus had to give up His life, only innocent blood from the perfect Lamb could possibly save man.
Ds Wrote:(bolding added) (each bolded passage corresponds to one point)
1. God cannot change the rules, even temporarily? Then he is not omnipotent.
God never changes and because He knew before creation what His plan was He has never changed anything. An omniscient being will have the perfect plan from the beginning, God has never been surprised by anything anyone has ever done.
Ds Wrote:2. Yeah, which is one of the numerous reasons I find the story hard to believe.
You find the story hard to believe because an omniscient being foresaw the only plan for salvation that would satisfy His will. That does not make sense to me.
Ds Wrote:3. He was dead for three days...and he's otherwise immortal. Not much of a sacrifice...
Now you're starting to state the sad questions of others, please can you do better than that. This is a tired old question most Christians are tired of answering. When Christ left heaven He gave up more than you or I could ever imagine. He lived in the glory of Heaven and was all powerful, when He left heaven He had to suffer through the same things sinful man did, Christ was perfect and did not deserve to suffer our lives. He also gave up all His powers, the miracles He did were through the Father's power. This analogy is not the best but should suffice, it would be like you giving up your life that you have now to live as an ant, your only purpose is to work to survive, no pleasures, no love, little if any rest, only a single minded purpose, work, work, work. Christ had to suffer death, when He should not had to, because of us, He should of never had to taste the horrors of death, especially the one he suffered. Christ's death was due to carrying all the burdens of our sins, our sinless God suffered a death that only we should have, we committed the crimes against God, and He has to pay for it so we can be redeemed. That's like a criminal going to court and found guilty and the judge has to do the time.
Ds Wrote:4. The reason that god cursed humanity was because Adam and Eve grew a conscience... The whole sacrifice was just theatrics to give us a 'martyr'.
Here's another one of those old quotes that make no reasonable sense, first off Adam and Eve did not grow a conscience, they sinned against God through disobedience, they understood what they had done when they ate the fruit and became knowledgeable of good and evil, God found them hiding from Him, this should tell you how much they regretted what they did, and just like kids they tried to blame others for their mistake. God the Father did not want His Son to be a martyr, being a martyr necessarily includes terrible suffering, God would have much rather had His creation to stay perfect. Man screwed that up royally, and God's love allowed for that very thing. What a sad lot we are.
Ds Wrote:5. It's a sad day when an omnipotent being needs to personally kill animals and skin them for clothing when he could just poof it into existence...well, then he wouldn't be able to shame humanity properly, I guess (kind of a weak excuse). Not to mention, a couple random animals' deaths are equivalent to the death of the son of god? (Well, he was ressurected after only three days. NOw, I know he was hurt in the process of being killed, but he's god, so to him it would be like a painful surgery from which you become immortal) Who wants to bet that jews suffered more during the holocaust than Jesus ever did?
No one will ever suffer the death Christ did and only a foolish man would think so. Christ, as the man Jesus took all the sin past, present and future upon Himself, can you even imagine what that horror would be like, tell me what that kind of guilt would be like upon a person.
God did not need to kill those animals, He could have wiped Adam and Eve off the face of the earth. His love for them and future people is what brought this about, it is what had to happen. By the way poof, really, that sounds a bit childish. The sacrifice of the animals was a fore shadowing of what was to be, what had to be, the death of Christ to redeem man kind. Have you ever studied scriptures to find out what's in them or are you the follow the leader type and accept what ever any nonbeliever says whether it be true or not.
There were many more things I brought up why did you stick with the questions and quotes that most nonbelievers do, are you not interested in being your own person, making your own decisions. Are you only interested in discrediting God or are you looking for truths in life.
Next time post the entire Bible to clarify your point, even though no one actually cares, for what you say. You only prove what is written. If I have a dream one day of a Dragon that barks, and gather an entire army, to use violence so everyone accepts it as a fact, and then write it in a book, doesn't make my dream true. I do not understand what are you trying to establish in this forum, but all you are doing is correcting stories, what's the point?
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