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October 3, 2012 at 11:50 am (This post was last modified: October 3, 2012 at 12:01 pm by Darkstar.)
(October 3, 2012 at 2:02 am)Godschild Wrote: The greatest thing they know still is not God, did you really read what I stated, it seems that you did not by your response.
They knew of something greater than god?
Godschild Wrote:Adam and Eve were created fully aware and knowing right from wrong, they had no learning curve to go through. Two year old children have miles to go, if mom and dad kicked them out of the house they could not survive. Adam and Eve were fully prepared to survive outside of the Garden.
Okay, the survival is different, but I still don't know how you say they knew right from wrong when they had no knowledge of good and evil.
You said earlier
Godschild Wrote:Knowing your disobeying has nothing to do with good and evil necessarily, small children will knowingly disobey their parents, you can't necessarily call that doing or have knowledge of doing evil.
When the accurate moral comparison is small children, don't you think god overreacted?
Godschild Wrote:How can you say they did not know the difference between right and wrong, not having the knowledge of good and evil does not necessarily say they did not know the difference between right and wrong. I thought the idea of the 2 year old child knowing right from wrong, yet not understanding good and evil was understood as a correct idea, related to Adam and Eve. Gen. 3:3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden,... Eve says this to the serpent, Gen 2:16... "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17) but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." This is the commandment from God. God gave this commandment to them and they understand there would be consequences if they did not obey, thus knowing the difference between right and wrong.
Does obeying to avoid punishment really constitute a conscience? The consequence was death, so it didn't matter if they knew what was 'wrong', they just didn't want to die.
Quote:Lucifer did lie to them, they did die, Lucifer said they would not. Lucifer said they would be like God, they were punished by God, so how is it they were anything like God. God still lives they are dead, they come under God's judgement, God will never be judged by a superior being, they are sinners God is righteous, do I need to say more. Lucifer lied to them, working on their pride and they fell for his deception. As I said previously they died that every day, it was a spiritual death, the physical death came later.
I believe that I made it clear that Lucifer said they would not surely die, not that they surely wouldn't. God said they would die on the day that they had eaten it, which did not happen. I don't know how you can say they died a 'spiritual' death by acquiring a conscience. They still had souls, didn't they? They 'knew' it was wrong because god arbitrarily told them. The only justification he gave was that they would die that very day. With the deterrent removed, and without any knowledge of good and evil, of course they would eat it.
Godschild Wrote:God kicked them out of the Garden (sanctuary) and also punished (cursed) them for ruining the perfect creation, personally I believe they got off light, considering what God could have done.
What more could he have done? He cursed them, kicked them out of paradise, and opened the gates of hell to everyone. Everyone born before Jesus burned at least until Jesus's death, all for a single disobedience from people who had no knowledge of good and evil. I think he seriously overreacted... The best reason I can see for kicking them out (but not any of the other things) was the preservation of innocence. If they knew not of evil, they could not comprehend the difference between it and good. Lucifer gave them knowledge at the cost of innocence; isn't that what we all do nowadays anyway? (Although we live in an imperfect world, so it is required, whereas Eden wasn't the same.)
Godschild Wrote:God allowed Lucifer to tempt them because of love, like I said previously (are you sure you have read what I wrote) God wanted Adam and Eve to love Him through their obedience, that is to chose to obey His commandment over falling to Lucifer's deception. This is no different than what parents want from their children. Lucifer lost his love for God and all that goes with loving Him, and Lucifer wanted all of God's creation to suffer along with him.
God let the devil himself decieve Adam and Eve because he loved them? They had no knowledge of good and evil, it couldn't have occured to them that he was supposed to be the bad guy. You use the word 'decieved'. If they were truly decieved, then they dis not know what they were doing. Look at their reactins to the snake's words, they are obviously profoundly naive and do not understand the difference between right and wrong in any more then a completely arbitrary way.
Godschild Wrote:Ok, let's make this simpler, God will not associate with the sinful, does this clear up things. God's omnipresent, which means He can be in all places all the time if He chooses to.
I thought that everyone was sinful. Didn't Jesus associate with the sinful on occasion? (Not to join them is sinning, mind you)
Godschild Wrote:God never changes and because He knew before creation what His plan was He has never changed anything. An omniscient being will have the perfect plan from the beginning, God has never been surprised by anything anyone has ever done.
So all of the terrible things that happen were meant to? God is responsible for the holocaust? Saying 'well his plan is so complex that is makes no sense...to a mortal' is kind of a cop out. If god's plan requires so much suffering, then he isn't very efficient, now is he?
Godschild Wrote:You find the story hard to believe because an omniscient being foresaw the only plan for salvation that would satisfy His will. That does not make sense to me.
So now it isn't that god is inefficient; he deliberately takes a hard path with humanity because he feels like it.
Godschild Wrote:Now you're starting to state the sad questions of others, please can you do better than that. This is a tired old question most Christians are tired of answering. When Christ left heaven He gave up more than you or I could ever imagine. He lived in the glory of Heaven and was all powerful, when He left heaven He had to suffer through the same things sinful man did, Christ was perfect and did not deserve to suffer our lives. He also gave up all His powers, the miracles He did were through the Father's power. This analogy is not the best but should suffice, it would be like you giving up your life that you have now to live as an ant, your only purpose is to work to survive, no pleasures, no love, little if any rest, only a single minded purpose, work, work, work. Christ had to suffer death, when He should not had to, because of us, He should of never had to taste the horrors of death, especially the one he suffered. Christ's death was due to carrying all the burdens of our sins, our sinless God suffered a death that only we should have, we committed the crimes against God, and He has to pay for it so we can be redeemed. That's like a criminal going to court and found guilty and the judge has to do the time.
Poor guy, he had to give up being omnipotent for a cosmological second. His early death was a blessing then, if it is suffering to simply be human. Wow, then we must really be martyrs; we're human our whole lives!
Godschild Wrote:Here's another one of those old quotes that make no reasonable sense, first off Adam and Eve did not grow a conscience, they sinned against God through disobedience, they understood what they had done when they ate the fruit and became knowledgeable of good and evil, God found them hiding from Him, this should tell you how much they regretted what they did, and just like kids they tried to blame others for their mistake. God the Father did not want His Son to be a martyr, being a martyr necessarily includes terrible suffering, God would have much rather had His creation to stay perfect. Man screwed that up royally, and God's love allowed for that very thing. What a sad lot we are.
(bolding added)
You do realize you just admitted that they didn't know it was wrong until after the fact. We sure 'screwed that up royally' when two people who didn't know the difference between right and wrong were tricked into disobeying an arbitrary command.
Godschild Wrote:No one will ever suffer the death Christ did and only a foolish man would think so. Christ, as the man Jesus took all the sin past, present and future upon Himself, can you even imagine what that horror would be like, tell me what that kind of guilt would be like upon a person.
God did not need to kill those animals, He could have wiped Adam and Eve off the face of the earth. His love for them and future people is what brought this about, it is what had to happen. By the way poof, really, that sounds a bit childish. The sacrifice of the animals was a fore shadowing of what was to be, what had to be, the death of Christ to redeem man kind. Have you ever studied scriptures to find out what's in them or are you the follow the leader type and accept what ever any nonbeliever says whether it be true or not.
So...he killed the animals to foreshadow the bloodletting that had to be? Remember what you said about it earlier?
Godschild Wrote:I mentioned above that God said that the shedding of blood was the only way for redemption of sin and that it was this way from the beginning. Well there is a reason for it and Adam and Eve's disobedience was the cause, when God found them hiding in the Garden they had said they were naked, understanding good and evil. God clothed them with animal skins, God had to kill animals and make clothing to cover their nakedness, in doing this blood was shed because of sin, the first deaths occurred because of sin and the innocent died first. The covering of Adam and Eve's nakedness with the death of innocent animals is representative of the covering of sin with blood from the innocent perfect Lamb of God, know you know exactly why Jesus had to give up His life, only innocent blood from the perfect Lamb could possibly save man.
I believe that you have seriously contradicted yourself. In one passage you say that the killing is merely foreshadowing what was already destined to come, in the other you say it was the only reason for what was to come.
Godschild Wrote:There were many more things I brought up why did you stick with the questions and quotes that most nonbelievers do, are you not interested in being your own person, making your own decisions. Are you only interested in discrediting God or are you looking for truths in life.
How am I not interested in being my own person? If I'm repeating things others have already said, then it is only because you are doing the same, and that a similar conversation have been had before.
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
Darkstar... that looks as too much writing for a origin story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_story
These people who believe in the Adam&Eve story grade as high as the people who believe that the spiderman origin story is possible... not too many of these around, though...
(October 3, 2012 at 2:02 am)Godschild Wrote: The greatest thing they know still is not God, did you really read what I stated, it seems that you did not by your response. Adam and Eve were created fully aware and knowing right from wrong, they had no learning curve to go through. Two year old children have miles to go, if mom and dad kicked them out of the house they could not survive. Adam and Eve were fully prepared to survive outside of the Garden.
How can you say they did not know the difference between right and wrong, not having the knowledge of good and evil does not necessarily say they did not know the difference between right and wrong. I thought the idea of the 2 year old child knowing right from wrong, yet not understanding good and evil was understood as a correct idea, related to Adam and Eve. Gen. 3:3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden,... Eve says this to the serpent, Gen 2:16... "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17) but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." This is the commandment from God. God gave this commandment to them and they understand there would be consequences if they did not obey, thus knowing the difference between right and wrong.
Lucifer did lie to them, they did die, Lucifer said they would not. Lucifer said they would be like God, they were punished by God, so how is it they were anything like God. God still lives they are dead, they come under God's judgement, God will never be judged by a superior being, they are sinners God is righteous, do I need to say more. Lucifer lied to them, working on their pride and they fell for his deception. As I said previously they died that every day, it was a spiritual death, the physical death came later.
God kicked them out of the Garden (sanctuary) and also punished (cursed) them for ruining the perfect creation, personally I believe they got off light, considering what God could have done.
God allowed Lucifer to tempt them because of love, like I said previously (are you sure you have read what I wrote) God wanted Adam and Eve to love Him through their obedience, that is to chose to obey His commandment over falling to Lucifer's deception. This is no different than what parents want from their children. Lucifer lost his love for God and all that goes with loving Him, and Lucifer wanted all of God's creation to suffer along with him.
(bolding added)
Ok, let's make this simpler, God will not associate with the sinful, does this clear up things. God's omnipresent, which means He can be in all places all the time if He chooses to.
God never changes and because He knew before creation what His plan was He has never changed anything. An omniscient being will have the perfect plan from the beginning, God has never been surprised by anything anyone has ever done.
You find the story hard to believe because an omniscient being foresaw the only plan for salvation that would satisfy His will. That does not make sense to me.
Now you're starting to state the sad questions of others, please can you do better than that. This is a tired old question most Christians are tired of answering. When Christ left heaven He gave up more than you or I could ever imagine. He lived in the glory of Heaven and was all powerful, when He left heaven He had to suffer through the same things sinful man did, Christ was perfect and did not deserve to suffer our lives. He also gave up all His powers, the miracles He did were through the Father's power. This analogy is not the best but should suffice, it would be like you giving up your life that you have now to live as an ant, your only purpose is to work to survive, no pleasures, no love, little if any rest, only a single minded purpose, work, work, work. Christ had to suffer death, when He should not had to, because of us, He should of never had to taste the horrors of death, especially the one he suffered. Christ's death was due to carrying all the burdens of our sins, our sinless God suffered a death that only we should have, we committed the crimes against God, and He has to pay for it so we can be redeemed. That's like a criminal going to court and found guilty and the judge has to do the time.
Here's another one of those old quotes that make no reasonable sense, first off Adam and Eve did not grow a conscience, they sinned against God through disobedience, they understood what they had done when they ate the fruit and became knowledgeable of good and evil, God found them hiding from Him, this should tell you how much they regretted what they did, and just like kids they tried to blame others for their mistake. God the Father did not want His Son to be a martyr, being a martyr necessarily includes terrible suffering, God would have much rather had His creation to stay perfect. Man screwed that up royally, and God's love allowed for that very thing. What a sad lot we are.
No one will ever suffer the death Christ did and only a foolish man would think so. Christ, as the man Jesus took all the sin past, present and future upon Himself, can you even imagine what that horror would be like, tell me what that kind of guilt would be like upon a person.
God did not need to kill those animals, He could have wiped Adam and Eve off the face of the earth. His love for them and future people is what brought this about, it is what had to happen. By the way poof, really, that sounds a bit childish. The sacrifice of the animals was a fore shadowing of what was to be, what had to be, the death of Christ to redeem man kind. Have you ever studied scriptures to find out what's in them or are you the follow the leader type and accept what ever any nonbeliever says whether it be true or not.
There were many more things I brought up why did you stick with the questions and quotes that most nonbelievers do, are you not interested in being your own person, making your own decisions. Are you only interested in discrediting God or are you looking for truths in life.
Next time post the entire Bible to clarify your point, even though no one actually cares, for what you say. You only prove what is written. If I have a dream one day of a Dragon that barks, and gather an entire army, to use violence so everyone accepts it as a fact, and then write it in a book, doesn't make my dream true. I do not understand what are you trying to establish in this forum, but all you are doing is correcting stories, what's the point?
The point is to prove you know nothing about scriptures, that's why you have no decent reply. I will use all the scripture I believe pertains to the subject, thank you very much.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Adam and Eve were created fully aware and knowing right from wrong, they had no learning curve to go through. Two year old children have miles to go, if mom and dad kicked them out of the house they could not survive. Adam and Eve were fully prepared to survive outside of the Garden.
Ds Wrote:Okay, the survival is different, but I still don't know how you say they knew right from wrong when they had no knowledge of good and evil.
You said earlier
Godschild Wrote:Knowing your disobeying has nothing to do with good and evil necessarily, small children will knowingly disobey their parents, you can't necessarily call that doing or have knowledge of doing evil.
What you hid says it all, we established this with the small child analogy. So, yes they knew right from wrong, there was consequences, consequences that they did not understand, but they knew something unpleasant would happen.
Ds Wrote:When the accurate moral comparison is small children, don't you think god overreacted?
You have in this statement shown that you agree with the small child analogy, and no I've already stated they got off light in their personal punishment. I'll explain when I get to your reply about this.
Godschild Wrote:How can you say they did not know the difference between right and wrong, not having the knowledge of good and evil does not necessarily say they did not know the difference between right and wrong. I thought the idea of the 2 year old child knowing right from wrong, yet not understanding good and evil was understood as a correct idea, related to Adam and Eve. Gen. 3:3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden,... Eve says this to the serpent, Gen 2:16... "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17) but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." This is the commandment from God. God gave this commandment to them and they understand there would be consequences if they did not obey, thus knowing the difference between right and wrong.
Ds Wrote:Does obeying to avoid punishment really constitute a conscience? The consequence was death, so it didn't matter if they knew what was 'wrong', they just didn't want to die.
Does a small child have a conscience, yes they do, do they obey mom and dad to avoid punishment, yes they do. So what point were you trying to make, you surely did not in your above statement.
Gc Wrote:Lucifer did lie to them, they did die, Lucifer said they would not. Lucifer said they would be like God, they were punished by God, so how is it they were anything like God. God still lives they are dead, they come under God's judgement, God will never be judged by a superior being, they are sinners, God is righteous, do I need to say more. Lucifer lied to them, working on their pride and they fell for his deception. As I said previously they died that every day, it was a spiritual death, the physical death came later.
Ds Wrote:I believe that I made it clear that Lucifer said they would not surely die, not that they surely wouldn't. God said they would die on the day that they had eaten it, which did not happen. I don't know how you can say they died a 'spiritual' death by acquiring a conscience. They still had souls, didn't they? They 'knew' it was wrong because god arbitrarily told them. The only justification he gave was that they would die that very day. With the deterrent removed, and without any knowledge of good and evil, of course they would eat it.
Please explain the bold sentence above, it makes no sense to me.
They died the moment they ate of the fruit, they were separated from God by sin, no more walks with Him, no more anything, banished from the Garden. They are the cause no living man could look upon God until after the judgement, they separated all of mankind from God, and you do not think they died, they are responsible for Christ's death (as we all are), this is the spiritual death, separation from our heavenly Father.
God arbitrarily told them, just something He threw from the cuff I suppose, God is deliberate in all that He says and does.
They died actually twice, so how do you see the deterrent removed. If your dad told you not to jump from a high place because you will die, then a teacher comes along and says you will not surely die are you going to jump.
Godschild Wrote:God kicked them out of the Garden (sanctuary) and also punished (cursed) them for ruining the perfect creation, personally I believe they got off light, considering what God could have done.
Ds Wrote:What more could he have done? He cursed them, kicked them out of paradise, and opened the gates of hell to everyone. Everyone born before Jesus burned at least until Jesus's death, all for a single disobedience from people who had no knowledge of good and evil. I think he seriously overreacted... The best reason I can see for kicking them out (but not any of the other things) was the preservation of innocence. If they knew not of evil, they could not comprehend the difference between it and good. Lucifer gave them knowledge at the cost of innocence; isn't that what we all do nowadays anyway? (Although we live in an imperfect world, so it is required, whereas Eden wasn't the same.)
Now to answer your overreaction question, God could have put them, and each of us to follow at the mercy of the Roman whip and cross, that is what they deserve (it's what we all deserve). This is what Christ saved us from, He took it instead of us.
Yes, He did open the gates of hell to all who will not believe in His Christ, you are wrong about people being there, the judgement has not yet come, it will though.
Yes Eden is the same, God removed it from the earth, the Garden will be returned, if you think I'm making this up you can find it in scripture.
When Adam and Eve disobeyed God all innocence was lost upon the earth, that's why we now have a sin nature, it is the loss of innocence.
Godschild Wrote:God allowed Lucifer to tempt them because of love, like I said previously (are you sure you have read what I wrote) God wanted Adam and Eve to love Him through their obedience, that is to chose to obey His commandment over falling to Lucifer's deception. This is no different than what parents want from their children. Lucifer lost his love for God and all that goes with loving Him, and Lucifer wanted all of God's creation to suffer along with him.
Ds Wrote:God let the devil himself decieve Adam and Eve because he loved them? They had no knowledge of good and evil, it couldn't have occured to them that he was supposed to be the bad guy. You use the word 'decieved'. If they were truly decieved, then they dis not know what they were doing. Look at their reactins to the snake's words, they are obviously profoundly naive and do not understand the difference between right and wrong in any more then a completely arbitrary way.
You look at this situation from a child's view, I do not mean this as an insult, so please do not take it that way. What I mean is that you see this as a good guy, bad guy point of view, when this in reality is a part of a great spiritual war, we are not the prize to be won either. The war is to let evil run it's coarse and then God put an end to it by allowing, through love, His Son to be killed on a cross and then resurrecting Him from the grave. So yes, because of love God allowed Lucifer to tempt Adam and Eve. I would not expect you as a nonbeliever to understand this, but this is what we have because of two people deliberately disobeying God. As I just said, deliberately they disobeyed God, they understood there were consequences to their action.
Godschild Wrote:Ok, let's make this simpler, God will not associate with the sinful, does this clear up things. God's omnipresent, which means He can be in all places all the time if He chooses to.
Ds Wrote:I thought that everyone was sinful. Didn't Jesus associate with the sinful on occasion? (Not to join them is sinning, mind you)
Like I have said, Jesus is God as a man, when He left heaven, He left behind His royalty ie. glory, power and ect. This is why He was able to be in the presence of sinners, every day He was here.
Godschild Wrote:God never changes and because He knew before creation what His plan was He has never changed anything. An omniscient being will have the perfect plan from the beginning, God has never been surprised by anything anyone has ever done.
Ds Wrote:So all of the terrible things that happen were meant to? God is responsible for the holocaust? Saying 'well his plan is so complex that is makes no sense...to a mortal' is kind of a cop out. If god's plan requires so much suffering, then he isn't very efficient, now is he?
The bold above is a big debate even among Christians, and I'm not going to debate it one way or the other. What I will say is God foreknew all things, that's why I said God is never surprised. God is not responsible for the holocaust, sinful man is, when I speak of God 's plan I do not mean He planned the entire future in every detail. I'm saying He looked down through history and saw what would be and made His redemptive plan accordingly. God allowed all of history to run as it would be and He was able to work out redemption within it.
You say He is not effective, yet He was able to work out His plan without altering history, the worlds past and future is determined by man's actions, and it all began with one wrong decision in a beautiful garden several thousand years ago. Sad but then we can't change it, all we are able to change is our eternal destination.
Godschild Wrote:You find the story hard to believe because an omniscient being foresaw the only plan for salvation that would satisfy His will. That does not make sense to me.
Ds Wrote:So now it isn't that god is inefficient; he deliberately takes a hard path with humanity because he feels like it.
You are the one who said God is inefficient, not me. God takes the path that will lead to the redemption of man, if the path gets hard it is man's fault, not God's. He through Christ has given us a way out of this mess, and you know I personally have experienced this. You talk about God doing things because He feels like it, now that would make Him irresponsible, which is outside the possibility of an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent being, so you see God does things with purpose. This makes your above statement contradictory.
Godschild Wrote:Now you're starting to state the sad questions of others, please can you do better than that. This is a tired old question most Christians are tired of answering. When Christ left heaven He gave up more than you or I could ever imagine. He lived in the glory of Heaven and was all powerful, when He left heaven He had to suffer through the same things sinful man did, Christ was perfect and did not deserve to suffer our lives. He also gave up all His powers, the miracles He did were through the Father's power. This analogy is not the best but should suffice, it would be like you giving up your life that you have now to live as an ant, your only purpose is to work to survive, no pleasures, no love, little if any rest, only a single minded purpose, work, work, work. Christ had to suffer death, when He should not had to, because of us, He should of never had to taste the horrors of death, especially the one he suffered. Christ's death was due to carrying all the burdens of our sins, our sinless God suffered a death that only we should have, we committed the crimes against God, and He has to pay for it so we can be redeemed. That's like a criminal going to court and found guilty and the judge has to do the time.
Ds Wrote:Poor guy, he had to give up being omnipotent for a cosmological second. His early death was a blessing then, if it is suffering to simply be human. Wow, then we must really be martyrs; we're human our whole lives!
Quit being childish, you are better than that, at least I hope so. Christ was the one who created all, man is the one who ruined His perfect work. We deserve all that happens in this world, Christ did not, and He most certainly did not have to redeem mankind. Like I said before, God could have allowed us all to go under the Roman punishment Christ suffered and suffer the guilt of our sin, no one can even imagine the horror of that guilt.
Godschild Wrote:Here's another one of those old quotes that make no reasonable sense, first off Adam and Eve did not grow a conscience, they sinned against God through disobedience, they understood what they had done when they ate the fruit and became knowledgeable of good and evil, God found them hiding from Him, this should tell you how much they regretted what they did, and just like kids they tried to blame others for their mistake. God the Father did not want His Son to be a martyr, being a martyr necessarily includes terrible suffering, God would have much rather had His creation to stay perfect. Man screwed that up royally, and God's love allowed for that very thing. What a sad lot we are.
(bolding added)
Ds Wrote:You do realize you just admitted that they didn't know it was wrong until after the fact. We sure 'screwed that up royally' when two people who didn't know the difference between right and wrong were tricked into disobeying an arbitrary command.
I did not come close to saying that, I said they understood the horror they brought upon themselves, stop trying to put a wrong slant on what was clearly stated. We, does that mean you were there, they screwed up and we continue the same even today, man will never learn unless God is in his life.
Godschild Wrote:No one will ever suffer the death Christ did and only a foolish man would think so. Christ, as the man Jesus took all the sin past, present and future upon Himself, can you even imagine what that horror would be like, tell me what that kind of guilt would be like upon a person.
God did not need to kill those animals, He could have wiped Adam and Eve off the face of the earth. His love for them and future people is what brought this about, it is what had to happen. By the way poof, really, that sounds a bit childish. The sacrifice of the animals was a fore shadowing of what was to be, what had to be, the death of Christ to redeem man kind. Have you ever studied scriptures to find out what's in them or are you the follow the leader type and accept what ever any nonbeliever says whether it be true or not.
Ds Wrote:So...he killed the animals to foreshadow the bloodletting that had to be? Remember what you said about it earlier?
Godschild Wrote:I mentioned above that God said that the shedding of blood was the only way for redemption of sin and that it was this way from the beginning. Well there is a reason for it and Adam and Eve's disobedience was the cause, when God found them hiding in the Garden they had said they were naked, understanding good and evil. God clothed them with animal skins, God had to kill animals and make clothing to cover their nakedness, in doing this blood was shed because of sin, the first deaths occurred because of sin and the innocent died first. The covering of Adam and Eve's nakedness with the death of innocent animals is representative of the covering of sin with blood from the innocent perfect Lamb of God, know you know exactly why Jesus had to give up His life, only innocent blood from the perfect Lamb could possibly save man.
I believe that you have seriously contradicted yourself. In one passage you say that the killing is merely foreshadowing what was already destined to come, in the other you say it was the only reason for what was to come.
I have not contradicted myself, again you are trying to put a false slant on what I said. I would never say a mere foreshadowing, that would be to degrade what had happened, please read closely what I state. I said the reason there was shedding of blood through innocence was because the innocent died to cloth the sinful and this was the foreshadowing of Christ's redemptive death.
Godschild Wrote:There were many more things I brought up why did you stick with the questions and quotes that most nonbelievers do, are you not interested in being your own person, making your own decisions. Are you only interested in discrediting God or are you looking for truths in life.
Ds Wrote:How am I not interested in being my own person? If I'm repeating things others have already said, then it is only because you are doing the same, and that a similar conversation have been had before.
I doubt others have brought to you what I've brought forward in our conversation, yes I'm sure that a similar conversation has taken place, just not with you, and I know we have not discussed this before. I state things from what I have learn through others and personal Bible study, if I believe someone has a wrong teaching I will search it out, even if it's my pastor or anyone of Biblical authority. When it comes down to it the Holy Spirit is the One who will reveal the truth of scripture.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(October 4, 2012 at 3:27 am)Godschild Wrote: You have in this statement shown that you agree with the small child analogy, and no I've already stated they got off light in their personal punishment. I'll explain when I get to your reply about this.
If they were comparable to small children, then why punish the human race so dearly for something they did wrong? If parents exacted horrible vengence on small children every time they did something bad, the world would be really messed up. God is a ridiculously demanding parent.
Godschild Wrote:Does a small child have a conscience, yes they do, do they obey mom and dad to avoid punishment, yes they do. So what point were you trying to make, you surely did not in your above statement.
Why, then, do people say that they didn't 'know better' when a small child does some small act of dosobedience?
Ds Wrote:I believe that I made it clear that Lucifer said they would not surely die, not that they surely wouldn't. Please explain the bold sentence above, it makes no sense to me.
They died the moment they ate of the fruit, they were separated from God by sin, no more walks with Him, no more anything, banished from the Garden. They are the cause no living man could look upon God until after the judgement, they separated all of mankind from God, and you do not think they died, they are responsible for Christ's death (as we all are), this is the spiritual death, separation from our heavenly Father.
(bolding added)
I mean to say that Lucifer never said that they definitely wouldn't die, just that they wouldn't necessarily. The 'death' you speak of is purely metaphorical. Also, about the bolded statement:
Genesis 32:30: So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
Godschild Wrote:God arbitrarily told them, just something He threw from the cuff I suppose, God is deliberate in all that He says and does.
They died actually twice, so how do you see the deterrent removed. If your dad told you not to jump from a high place because you will die, then a teacher comes along and says you will not surely die are you going to jump.
The jumping anaolgy is not the same because there is no benefit to jumping off of a roof. Why god wanted to prevent humans from knowing the difference between good and evil is questionable.
Godschild Wrote:Now to answer your overreaction question, God could have put them, and each of us to follow at the mercy of the Roman whip and cross, that is what they deserve (it's what we all deserve).
Because of the disobedience of two people millenia ago, we all deserve terrible punishment? Maybe god thinks so, but that's just his ego talking.
Godschild Wrote:This is what Christ saved us from, He took it instead of us.
Yes, He did open the gates of hell to all who will not believe in His Christ, you are wrong about people being there, the judgement has not yet come, it will though.
Yes Eden is the same, God removed it from the earth, the Garden will be returned, if you think I'm making this up you can find it in scripture.
You're not making it up...scripture is making it up, and you have no evidence to suggest otherwise.
Godschild Wrote:When Adam and Eve disobeyed God all innocence was lost upon the earth, that's why we now have a sin nature, it is the loss of innocence.
That is what it all really boils down to. If Adam and Eve were innocent, they wouldn't have eaten the fruit unless influenced by another force, which would capitalize on their naiveity. God knew that letting the devil tempt them would end badly, but he evidently didn't care.
Godschild Wrote:You look at this situation from a child's view
Adam and Eve looked at it from a child's view.
Godschild Wrote:I do not mean this as an insult, so please do not take it that way. What I mean is that you see this as a good guy, bad guy point of view, when this in reality is a part of a great spiritual war, we are not the prize to be won either. The war is to let evil run it's coarse and then God put an end to it by allowing, through love, His Son to be killed on a cross and then resurrecting Him from the grave. So yes, because of love God allowed Lucifer to tempt Adam and Eve. I would not expect you as a nonbeliever to understand this, but this is what we have because of two people deliberately disobeying God. As I just said, deliberately they disobeyed God, they understood there were consequences to their action.
So...god is not necessarily the good guy, or he allowed evil to exist out of love for his creations? Presuming the latter (which is what I think you meant) then why was he so disappointed when he already knew what would happen? If he loved us so much he would have let them suffer the primary punishment of what they had done. If you tell a child not to watch a violent movie, but they do anyway, they may end up horrified, regretting their mistake. To punish them additionally on top of this in an extremely severe way seems cruel.
C. S. Lewi Wrote:“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
Godschild Wrote:Like I have said, Jesus is God as a man, when He left heaven, He left behind His royalty ie. glory, power and ect. This is why He was able to be in the presence of sinners, every day He was here.
So Jesus isn't god, then? I mean if he were he would have been talking to himself while on the cross.
Godschild Wrote:
Ds Wrote:So all of the terrible things that happen were meant to? God is responsible for the holocaust? Saying 'well his plan is so complex that is makes no sense...to a mortal' is kind of a cop out. If god's plan requires so much suffering, then he isn't very efficient, now is he?
The bold above is a big debate even among Christians, and I'm not going to debate it one way or the other. What I will say is God foreknew all things, that's why I said God is never surprised. God is not responsible for the holocaust, sinful man is, when I speak of God 's plan I do not mean He planned the entire future in every detail. I'm saying He looked down through history and saw what would be and made His redemptive plan accordingly. God allowed all of history to run as it would be and He was able to work out redemption within it.
You say He is not effective, yet He was able to work out His plan without altering history, the worlds past and future is determined by man's actions, and it all began with one wrong decision in a beautiful garden several thousand years ago. Sad but then we can't change it, all we are able to change is our eternal destination.
(bolding added)
George Yorgo Veenhuyzen Wrote:"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
Thanks to teaearlgreyhot's sig for this quote
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Godschild Wrote:You are the one who said God is inefficient, not me. God takes the path that will lead to the redemption of man, if the path gets hard it is man's fault, not God's. He through Christ has given us a way out of this mess, and you know I personally have experienced this. You talk about God doing things because He feels like it, now that would make Him irresponsible, which is outside the possibility of an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent being, so you see God does things with purpose. This makes your above statement contradictory.
God seems to forget that he is omnipotent sometimes. Nevertheless, where in the bible does it explicitly say 'god is omnipotent'? Maybe if you examined his actions objectively without assuming that 'oh, he's perfect, he must know what he's doing' you would realize that he is rather inefficent, or it is on his whim to make things harder. For example, why does god order his followers to kill non-believers?
Godschild Wrote:Quit being childish, you are better than that, at least I hope so. Christ was the one who created all, man is the one who ruined His perfect work. We deserve all that happens in this world, Christ did not, and He most certainly did not have to redeem mankind. Like I said before, God could have allowed us all to go under the Roman punishment Christ suffered and suffer the guilt of our sin, no one can even imagine the horror of that guilt.
Okay, but I could have been more childish...nah, I'll avoid it. The problem is that you say 'man ruined god's perfect creation'. Man was god's perfect creation. Either god made man flawed, or something perfect made a mistake.He didn't have to redeem mankind any more than he had to create hell, the very cause for the need for redemption. He's simply fixing a problem he created, and being made a hero. Also, my above response suggests that Jesus wasn't really god. Supernatural, yes. Yahweh, no.
Godschild Wrote:I did not come close to saying that, I said they understood the horror they brought upon themselves, stop trying to put a wrong slant on what was clearly stated. We, does that mean you were there, they screwed up and we continue the same even today, man will never learn unless God is in his life.
Religion is not the best source of morality. DO you hope to reconcile the barbaric practices in the OT with actual morals?
Godschild Wrote:I have not contradicted myself, again you are trying to put a false slant on what I said. I would never say a mere foreshadowing, that would be to degrade what had happened, please read closely what I state. I said the reason there was shedding of blood through innocence was because the innocent died to cloth the sinful and this was the foreshadowing of Christ's redemptive death.
So, basically, original sin is merely the loss of absolute innocence.
Godschild Wrote:I doubt others have brought to you what I've brought forward in our conversation, yes I'm sure that a similar conversation has taken place, just not with you, and I know we have not discussed this before. I state things from what I have learn through others and personal Bible study, if I believe someone has a wrong teaching I will search it out, even if it's my pastor or anyone of Biblical authority. When it comes down to it the Holy Spirit is the One who will reveal the truth of scripture.
So...who talked to the holy spirit and got the truth, and who lied about it? There are so many interpretaions of the bible, but, clearly only one can be gifted by the holy spirit. How can you know you have gotten yours from the holy spirit? Is everyone who interprets in differently lying, or did they only think they met the holy spirit? How would one know if it was real, or just in their head?
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
@ Darkstar, it's obvious you have no knowledge of scripture, yet you want to argue against something you know nothing about, to me that makes one very dense and delusional, believing they can argue against something they know nothing about. You copy everything from others or the net, it's easy to tell, same junk I've heard from nonbelievers for a long time. You could not determine what scripture is saying if your life depended on it, oh yeah, it does. You take the same sad statements others make and try to apply them to scriptures, and if you had ever studied scriptures you would see how embarrassed you should be. When you can come up with better arguments we can continue this, until then I'm going to stop wasting time on your copycatting ways. By the way C.S Lewis is a deeply devoted Christian, you have taken a quote out of context, you really must do better.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(October 3, 2012 at 2:02 am)Godschild Wrote: God never changes and because He knew before creation what His plan was He has never changed anything. An omniscient being will have the perfect plan from the beginning, God has never been surprised by anything anyone has ever done.
What happened between the old & new testament then? He went from a "vengeful angry god" to some kind of space hippy.
"How is it that a lame man does not annoy us while a lame mind does? Because a lame man recognizes that we are walking straight, while a lame mind says that it is we who are limping." - Pascal
