Pascal's Wager and the Selfishness of a "Good God"

[darkment0r]

This is a variation on Pascal's Wager.

Blaise Pascal was himself not a Christian and believed that the benefits of believing in god far outweighed the benefits of not believing in god. Pascal was an agnostic and thought god's existence was unprovable. His argument in a word, was that someone should choose to believe in god because it significantly enriches one's life despite the fact that it cannot be "known" only "believed".

Christian version (the "what if you're wrong" argument) states if you believe in god, they always mean their god, and you are wrong then you have wasted nothing and gained the comfort and structure of living a religious life. On the other hand, if you don't believe in god and you are wrong you end up going to hell and missing out on the "wonders" of Christianity.

There are two big problems with this argument:

1) Try to force yourself to believe something that you simply know is untrue for the sole purpose of comforting yourself. I would love to believe in Santa but it's simply not a logical belief. Same with god.

2) Christians always assume that their religion is the only and obvious choice. What if you are wrong about Zeus, Odin, Ahura Mazda, Allah, Kali, etc... By believing one religion you necessarily have the potential to be wrong about every other religion and end up in one of their hells. Plus believing just to cover one's own ass is horrifically disingenuine and certainly an all-knowing god would know whether you were believing just to stay out of hell.

I never knew that Pascal was an agnostic. I always just assumed that he was a Christian who was hailed for this argument. Thanks for sharing that.

When it comes to being an agnostic, I never really was one. The whole, "You can't disprove god" argument works on some. But not me. In my eyes, we have either disproved the existence of gods and broken them down to nothing more than explanations for how things work. They provided comfort for the uneducated in prehistoric times and do now as well. In an age where information is readily available to us on these matters and many, many, many more, I cannot believe in a god.

It goes without saying though, that I do still respect religions and agnostics. Just as long as everyone accepts each other's beliefs. When someone butts into my life and tries to change me, that's when things go wrong.

[Thor]

I saw a video where Michael Shermer was debating a priest and the priest used some semblance of this argument. Shermer replied that he could not fathom why an all powerful deity would even care whether or not you believed in him. Why does that even matter?

I thought it was an excellent point.

[Faith No More]

That's was one of the things that made me realize there was something wrong with Christianty as my parents took me to church as a child. It just didn't make since that this enlightened deity would be stuck on something so trivial.

[Thor]

That's was one of the things that made me realize there was something wrong with Christianty as my parents took me to church as a child. It just didn't make since that this enlightened deity would be stuck on something so trivial.

I agree. Why is this deity so insecure that he demands worship at least once a week? Why does he need to know that you still love him? Doesn't he already know this? And the Islamic god must be VERY insecure indeed! He demands worship FIVE TIMES A DAY!

[mediamogul]

This is a variation on Pascal's Wager.

Blaise Pascal was himself not a Christian and believed that the benefits of believing in god far outweighed the benefits of not believing in god. Pascal was an agnostic and thought god's existence was unprovable. His argument in a word, was that someone should choose to believe in god because it significantly enriches one's life despite the fact that it cannot be "known" only "believed".

Christian version (the "what if you're wrong" argument) states if you believe in god, they always mean their god, and you are wrong then you have wasted nothing and gained the comfort and structure of living a religious life. On the other hand, if you don't believe in god and you are wrong you end up going to hell and missing out on the "wonders" of Christianity.

There are two big problems with this argument:

1) Try to force yourself to believe something that you simply know is untrue for the sole purpose of comforting yourself. I would love to believe in Santa but it's simply not a logical belief. Same with god.

2) Christians always assume that their religion is the only and obvious choice. What if you are wrong about Zeus, Odin, Ahura Mazda, Allah, Kali, etc... By believing one religion you necessarily have the potential to be wrong about every other religion and end up in one of their hells. Plus believing just to cover one's own ass is horrifically disingenuine and certainly an all-knowing god would know whether you were believing just to stay out of hell.

I never knew that Pascal was an agnostic. I always just assumed that he was a Christian who was hailed for this argument. Thanks for sharing that.

When it comes to being an agnostic, I never really was one. The whole, "You can't disprove god" argument works on some. But not me. In my eyes, we have either disproved the existence of gods and broken them down to nothing more than explanations for how things work. They provided comfort for the uneducated in prehistoric times and do now as well. In an age where information is readily available to us on these matters and many, many, many more, I cannot believe in a god.

It goes without saying though, that I do still respect religions and agnostics. Just as long as everyone accepts each other's beliefs. When someone butts into my life and tries to change me, that's when things go wrong.

To be very specific Pascal said that one cannot know whether god exists or doesnt exist and therefore belief in god requires a conscious leap of faith, in other words a choice to believe or not to believe.

Christians have hijacked Pascals argument for so long that it has become practically ubiquitous in their argumentation. The concept of hell lends itself very easily to Pascals Wager and imbues it with much more fearful options than Pascals version. Pascals says you are missing out by not believing but Christians state that you will suffer eternal torment for not believing and that is their way of forcing the issue.

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That's was one of the things that made me realize there was something wrong with Christianty as my parents took me to church as a child. It just didn't make since that this enlightened deity would be stuck on something so trivial.

Also the demand that we worship him and keep no gods before him and follow every last nonsensical rule and most importantly believe in him above all. Sounds like an insecure imperfect petulant child.

[sarah888]

That's was one of the things that made me realize there was something wrong with Christianty as my parents took me to church as a child. It just didn't make since that this enlightened deity would be stuck on something so trivial.

I agree. Why is this deity so insecure that he demands worship at least once a week? Why does he need to know that you still love him? Doesn't he already know this? And the Islamic god must be VERY insecure indeed! He demands worship FIVE TIMES A DAY!

There is only one GOD , Christians call him Jesus, the historic and biblical Man/God. As Christians we believe in the two main principals of the BIBLE , Faith and commandment keeping. If there is no God I have nothing to lose. If there is you guys got everything to lose. Look at the world, look at NDE, why do they all have the same dream or visions of the afterlife, why cant science explain medical miracles ,etc. That big ball in the sky where did that come from. nothingness.??? IT makes sense to believe in a higher being we call God then not too.
Sarah

[Faith No More]

If there is no God I have nothing to lose.

Not true. You waste the one chance you get at a life trying to appease a deity that doesn't exist just to get into the happy part of the afterlife that doesn't exist.

[Matt231]

There is only one GOD , Christians call him Jesus, the historic and biblical Man/God. As Christians we believe in the two main principals of the BIBLE , Faith and commandment keeping. If there is no God I have nothing to lose. If there is you guys got everything to lose. Look at the world, look at NDE, why do they all have the same dream or visions of the afterlife, why cant science explain medical miracles ,etc. That big ball in the sky where did that come from. nothingness.??? IT makes sense to believe in a higher being we call God then not too.
Sarah[/b]

Well, there isn't a God, so I guess we won't lose anything. Most of the world can be explained without believing in God. They all have the same visions? I doubt they can remember these visions very well, and they use the concept of an "afterlife", as well as visions they have heard from other people, to fill in the gaps. The mind can do fucked up things, it doesn't mean there's an afterlife. Science will explain more once we understand things better. In the past, there were a lot of things we did not understand and used God as an explanation. Now science has come up with proper answers. At some point, something had to have come from nothing. If God created everything, then where the fuck did God come from? It does not make sense. That is why we do not believe in a supreme being. There is no logic behind that belief.

[Ace Otana]

If there is no God I have nothing to lose. If there is you guys got everything to lose.

And if there is a god but you've been worshipping the wrong one and end up in hell yourself. Perhaps this god doesn't like people like you threatening others with your beliefs and punishes you for it?
Thing is, you really need to cut out the 'what ifs' because it really doesn't go anywhere. Stick to what you know. Stick to known entities, keep to the simple until there is evidence for the complex. If you can't do that, you've got no hope of developing a rational and critical mind.

[Thor]

There is only one GOD ,

Oh, yeah? Prove it.

Christians call him Jesus,

And he has had many other names throughout history. Check out the Mithra fable. It's very similar to your Jesus myth.

the historic and biblical Man/God.

"Historic" and "biblical" are hardly synonoymous.

As Christians we believe in the two main principals of the BIBLE , Faith and commandment keeping.

Then how come there's no commandment forbidding rape, assault or slavery?

If there is no God I have nothing to lose.

Baloney. First off, maybe there is a god, but it's not the one you pray to. Then, when you die, this deity is pissed at you for not believing in him! In order to truly hedge your bets, you'd have to believe in every god ever invented by man. And secondly, nothing to lose? What about all that time you've spent (and continue to spend) worshiping this deity? What about all that time you've spent in church praying to this being? All that money you spent on gas driving to and from church? All those days you could've done something enjoyable instead of sitting in a church? How can you say you've lost nothing? Your life only has so many hours. If you've wasted thousands of them praying to a deity that doesn't exist, how can you seriously say you've lost "nothing"?

If there is you guys got everything to lose.

So you honestly think an "all-loving" deity is going to toss someone into the firepits of hell merely for not believing? Never mind that they may have been a philanthropist who built hospitals, helped the poor and provided housing for the homeless. Their "crime" of nonbelief is enough to send them to hell for eternity? If that's true, then I'd say your god is an unbelievable prick. Oh, and one more question... how would anyone feel pain from the fire in hell? Once we're dead, our nerves don't work any longer.

Look at the world,

I do look at the world. It's an incredibly dangerous and brutal place. Which is why I find the notion of a "loving" deity to be laughable.

look at NDE, why do they all have the same dream or visions of the afterlife,

Means nothing. It has been recorded that pilots have had similar experiences after blacking out due to G-forces. These "visions" are undoubtedly the throes of an oxygen-starved brain. No god necessary!

why cant science explain medical miracles ,etc.

Just because something can't be explained by modern scientists doesn't mean it's a "miracle". It is simply unexplained! One day it may be explained. Which makes your god only grow smaller and smaller.

That big ball in the sky where did that come from.

I think scientists can explain how the sun formed. And look! They can! I googled "How did the sun form" and I found this:

How did the sun form?
We believe that the sun formed from a big cloud of gas and dust. The cloud was dark and cold, and its gravity caused it to fall together. The gas that collected at the center got hot from all the other gas falling on it. When nearly all the gas and dust had fallen together, the center became very hot and very dense our sun. Some of the leftover gas and dust going in orbit around this baby sun became the planets.

It's from an article aimed at sixth graders, so I hope you can understand it.

nothingness.???

Ummm.... I think YOU are the one who thinks everything came from "nothingness".

IT makes sense to believe in a higher being we call God then not too.

Sure. If you throw your intellect and reasoning ability out the window.