A Real and Significant Biblical Contradiction?

[spockrates]

Helpful concordance here: http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.c...hapter=014

I have deceived that prophet…
(Ezekiel 14:9). As Cooke noted, A statement like this is not intelligible unless we take into consideration the thought patterns of oriental mind.F7 We have the same pattern in the thinking of believers even today. When a loved one is lost, we have all heard it said that, The Lord has called him home. This merely by-passes secondary and subordinate causes and attributes all that happens to the eternal will of God. God's deceiving a false prophet here was in no sense an evil act upon God's part. As a matter of fact the false prophet had brought the deception upon himselfF8 a by his own evil desires and deeds.

What is in view here is God's judicial blinding, hardening, or deception of wicked men. The classical example in the Old Testament is that of Pharaoh. The Lord indeed "hardened Pharaoh's heart"; but that occurred only after the Bible had declared no less than ten times that, "Pharaoh had hardened his own heart." Does the equivalent of such a thing happen today? Most assuredly, it does.

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess. 2:11-12 KJV).

It was possible to say of this self-deceived prophet that God had deceived him, because, "The consequences of his sin,. as well as the moral law of God which he violated were God's ordinances, and because the penalty of deception, was according to God's will, therefore his state of deception could quite properly be attributed to God."F9 This line of reasoning, however, suggests no amelioration of the false prophet's guilt. "No man can possibly become a false prophet without criminal blame upon himself."F10

This passage forbade any true prophet to provide God's Word to idolaters; and, by definition, that meant that any prophet speaking with an idolater was, of course, an evil-doer himself.

It is amazing, as Calvin said, that, "Neither imposters nor frauds take place apart from the will of God." Keil quoted Calvin's remark, and then added that, "This can happen only with persons who have first admitted evil into themselves. Furthermore, the penalty of God's judgment shall fall upon both alike, the deceived prophet, and the idolatrous inquirer."F11

Thank you Frodo for the info. (BTW, I'm looking forward to the Hobit coming to theaters. Also, a co-worker of mine has a son who is playing a small part in the film.)

I suppose the passage makes more sense from a Calvinist point of view. To the Calvinist, everyone who is self- deceived is God-deceived, because there is no freewill. Everything everyone says, thinks and does (the good, the bad and the ugly) is caused by God. I have trouble accepting Reformed Theology for other reasons, as it does not agree with some scripture and sometimes results in illogical conclusions. But the Calvinists certainly have an answer for this apparent contradiction.

(BTW, you don't have to say so if you don't want to, but do you consider yourself a Calvinist? From what I've read on your ratings page, you seem to be a friendly Steve Brown kind of guy.)

[The Grand Nudger]

You've misunderstood the Calvinists position on the matter of free will. Regardless of whatever doctrine they hold that would seem to be at odds with free will, or rule out it's existence, they maintain that it does exist.

[spockrates]

You've misunderstood the Calvinists position on the matter of free will. Regardless of whatever doctrine they hold that would seem to be at odds with free will, or rule out it's existence, they maintain that it does exist.

Fascinating. Please explain.

[Cinjin]

I can watch the theists mental gymnastics for hours, seriously.

There are few things more entertaining.

Well, there's always watching grass grow.

(Double Click Picture)

[KichigaiNeko]

[url=http://movies.watching-grass-grow.com/year/grass-grow-year.mpgWell, there's always watching grass grow.[/url]

(Double Click Picture)

Sorry can't see pic.

Seems it is a quick time movie.

[The Grand Nudger]

You've misunderstood the Calvinists position on the matter of free will. Regardless of whatever doctrine they hold that would seem to be at odds with free will, or rule out it's existence, they maintain that it does exist.

Fascinating. Please explain.

I wish I could, it seems inexplicable to me except by way of throwing my hands up and saying "I understand that this is important to you, and so you'd like to keep it regardless, have at it". The main point of contention is, apparently, our ability to choose not to sin. You see, we must all be filthy, sinful little things by our very nature. Generally, the idea is to redefine what free will is to begin with. In other words -creative interpretation-, as always.

[spockrates]

Fascinating. Please explain.

I wish I could, it seems inexplicable to me except by way of throwing my hands up and saying "I understand that this is important to you, and so you'd like to keep it regardless, have at it". The main point of contention is, apparently, our ability to choose not to sin. You see, we must all be filthy, sinful little things by our very nature. Generally, the idea is to redefine what free will is to begin with. In other words -creative interpretation-, as always.

Yes, I actually agree. I'd say someone who has freewill is someone who has the freedom to choose for, or against some idea, or someone. Calvinists (I used to be a member of a church that followed Calvin's teachings) seem to me to deny that people have the freedom to choose God. Only those he chooses to choose him do choose him, and those he chooses to not choose him do not choose him.

For example, a Calvinist might say you are not free to choose God, because God has not chosen you, and I am not free to reject God, because God has chosen me. (Though my fonts expressed about Reformed Theology might cause her to doubt that God has really chosen me!)

But I'm unsure how my definition of freewill differs from that of a Calvinist.

[The Grand Nudger]

It differs in what you are free to choose, as you mentioned. Nevertheless, if I asked you and a Calvinist whether or not there there was such a thing as "free will" you would both answer in the affirmative. Despite your ideas of what free will actually is being mutually exclusive, this gives the appearance of agreement. Differences that make no difference, so I am told.

[spockrates]

It differs in what you are free to choose, as you mentioned. Nevertheless, if I asked you and a Calvinist whether or not there there was such a thing as "free will" you would both answer in the affirmative. Despite your ideas of what free will actually is being mutually exclusive, this gives the appearance of agreement. Differences that make no difference, so I am told.

Yes, I stand corrected. I should amend my previous statement and say that Calvinists believe God does not choose our choices for us, but instead limits the choices we can make. Like children in a playpen, there are only so many toys in our grasps. The difference between Christians and atheists is the play pen they find themselves in! They are free to choose the toys in reach, but not free to choose the pen they're in!

[Cato]

Cato:

Don't you know that things are not always as they seem? I am keenly aware of my susceptibility to self-deception. So I ask what others think. To ponder alone is less likely to cure me of my deception than to think it through with others. The same is true if I'm not deceived: To ponder alone is less likely to assure me I'm not deceived than than to think it through with people like you.

Regarding this being an atheist-only forum, I read online that this is a forum designed for atheists, agnostics and people of religios faiths to respectfully discuss. Was I deceived about that, too?

Everyone is welcome at AF. My point was that your biblical gymnastics is misplaced.

You may be keenly aware of your susceptibility to self-deception, but have no problem wallowing in it if you believe in the god of the bible.