Why was the crucifixion necessary ?

[Drich]

I'm left to conclude that the evidence tailored for me was "no evidence". I guess god doesn't want me to believe in him. Oh well. No sweat off my sack. I mean, that's assuming you aren't speaking directly out of your ass on this one.

what were you looking for?

---

Yet another example of precisely the intellectual dishonesty you are hoping to deflect. Many have tested the waters, they have not found what you have found. You have been made aware of this, repeatedly.

did you test your waters or God's?

[pocaracas]

I think I spotted your problem, there.
Who told you that?

"we are told" Means we are told in the bible. It is akin to Jesus or Paul saying "it is written."

I can present you with a book that claims that three little pigs can build houses. "it is written". Does that make it true? does that make it real? can you understand the difference between these two concepts?

But I asked you to be recursive.... Someone wrote whatever is on the bible. How did that person come to have that knowledge?

How did that person come to have that knowledge (use recursion here until you arrive at the origin of the knowledge)?

Romans 6:23 is the orgins of that principle.

did you mean this:

Romans 6:23

New International Version (NIV)

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sorry for being stupid, but I fail to see how that knowledge came to be in the possession of a human being.

To me, if there was a god, there wouldn't be any atheists.

1/2 right. In that if their was undeniable evidence of God their couldn't be any atheists. Which if you look at the big picture it would also mean free will would not be possible either. For self preservation (from Hell) would over ride any consciousness decision to separate oneself from God. However as it is (because of doubt) one can confidently separate himself from God in favor of any number of 'other' beliefs.

Aye... the absent god...
The fear of hell that the clerics have bestowed upon mankind. Again, how does anyone know that there is such a thing? ...Oh yeah, written in a book...
I don't buy that, in case you haven't noticed.

God would show it self to all....

If God's objective is to force everyone into Heaven despite what He or she may actually want deep down.

According to the myth, the guy created this rock and all the bugs that inhabit it. Why should he care what the bugs choose to believe?
If he wanted the bugs' souls near him.... why not just create a bunch of souls to keep him company? Why bother with this rock?

and there wouldn't be more than one "belief system"...

If God were to demand this then many by the token of our individuality would fall short of this one religion. As it is we are all to worship to the best of our ability. Now because we are all different our worship looks different, and the same grace that covers our sins also covers our failed worship. What is left is the purest form of worship one can give. (I went into this in detail in my "The reason for so many denominations" thread.)

What I meant was that everyone would know of the existence of a given super-natural being. Not 100, not 3, not 50.... just that one (or that one group... who knows?)

well, then it wouldn't be much of a "belief".... it would just be known to all that god is "such and such", because he would... Tell us all, and keep reminding us all.... Always himself, never through strange ancient fallible gullible proxies.

which would undermine His stated reason for giving us this life. to choose where we are to spend eternity.

How do you know that that is his reason for giving us this life? It is written? oh, yeah.... not buying it, remember?
How is it that anyone ever came to know that?
Was it written before anyone wrote it?!

God plan for this life is to give us choice. True choice would not be possible if one knew of God, Heaven and Hell. For your fear of hell would distort any real choice that you would make. That is why knowledge of God is held back from those who will choose or have chosen to separate themselves from God.

soooo.... some options are always good:
- If I believe there is a hell, I choose to steer clear of it.
- If I know there is a hell, I choose to steer clear of it.
- If I don't believe there is a hell, I don't choose anything.
- If I don't know there is a hell, I don't choose anything.

How is knowledge different from belief, here?
Of course, I refuse to believe, so I could only be lead to steer clear of hell by knowing about it. And your god would know this very well, but still decline me the knowledge that would steer me in his direction. Why create something to send to hell?

I cannot choose to believe. I refuse to believe in the existence of the super-natural. My mind doesn't allow such nonsense.

---

From my experience, love comes after knowledge that the person being loved exists.

So it is not possiable for babies and small children to love their mothers? After all isn't self awareness a requirement before conscious awareness of others is possiable?

Or Maybe God requirement of love goes beyond the eros(desire based love) you are refering to.

Some species are born and associate the first living thing they see with their mothers. If there is love in there or not, I don't know.... If there is love in a days old baby, I don't know. Do you know? Eventually, kids grow and come to love their parents... but they know about them, by then, don't you agree?

[Minimalist]

did you test your waters or God's?

If god showed up and pissed in a test tube that would be evidence....subject to proving that he was actually "god."

[Drich]

I can present you with a book that claims that three little pigs can build houses. "it is written". Does that make it true? does that make it real? can you understand the difference between these two concepts?

But I asked you to be recursive.... Someone wrote whatever is on the bible. How did that person come to have that knowledge?

Holy Spirit inspired the account.

Sorry for being stupid, but I fail to see how that knowledge came to be in the possession of a human being.

God authored the passage, through the pen of Paul's scribe.

The fear of hell that the clerics have bestowed upon mankind.

What fear? Do you fear hell? I don't. It seems the only people who do pray to a man in Italy.

Again, how does anyone know that there is such a thing? ...Oh yeah, written in a book...
I don't buy that, in case you haven't noticed.

YOU don't have to.

According to the myth, the guy created this rock and all the bugs that inhabit it. Why should he care what the bugs choose to believe?

I don't know that He does.

If he wanted the bugs' souls near him.... why not just create a bunch of souls to keep him company?

He did, and 1/3 of them chose to risk literal Hell than stay.

Why bother with this rock?

To provide an oppertunity of true Choice without the imediate knoweledge of the glory of God to influence the 'souls' desision.

What I meant was that everyone would know of the existence of a given super-natural being. Not 100, not 3, not 50.... just that one (or that one group... who knows?)

Why? If they did would it not disrupt the choice we have been given to make in this life?

How do you know that that is his reason for giving us this life?

The bible says so.

It is written? oh, yeah.... not buying it, remember?

so?
You are asking Questions about God that are based on what the bible says. you can not choose to then ignore the same bible when the answers you seek, are based on the bible you orginally asked your questions from.

well you can, but your 'logic' will be deemed fallacious, and therefore dismissed as an invalid arguement. eitherway this line of reasoning you have presented is at an end... Hence my orginal response. So?

How is it that anyone ever came to know that?

How does anyone know anything about God?
God told them. Or God Inspired the account.

Was it written before anyone wrote it?!

Maybe you can ask God that one, yourself.

soooo.... some options are always good:
- If I believe there is a hell, I choose to steer clear of it.
- If I know there is a hell, I choose to steer clear of it.

Actually no. Not all who know of Hell steer clear of it.

- If I don't believe there is a hell, I don't choose anything.- If I don't know there is a hell, I don't choose anything.

Choosing nothing is Choosing Hell/eternal seperation from God..

How is knowledge different from belief, here?

You answer that in you next sentence. In that one can choose to dismiss simple belief.

Of course, I refuse to believe, so I could only be lead to steer clear of hell by knowing about it.

Why? as a matter of self perservation or because you will somehow begin to love God?

And your god would know this very well, but still decline me the knowledge that would steer me in his direction.

again, Not all want to steer clear of eternal seperation from God. In return God does not want Heaven populated with those seeking to simply save themselves.

Why create something to send to hell?

Because not all want to goto Heaven, and eternally serve God.

I cannot choose to believe. I refuse to believe in the existence of the super-natural. My mind doesn't allow such nonsense.

Simple belief is not the goal. Love is. One must Love the Lord God with all their Heart, Mind, Spirit, and Strength. The demons 'believe' and it means nothing to God.

Some species are born and associate the first living thing they see with their mothers. If there is love in there or not, I don't know.... If there is love in a days old baby, I don't know. Do you know?

Yes, for the love required is defined. Not as a 'feeling or a strong desire' but as an all encompassing devotion. In the greek there are 4 words that simply translate into the word' love' in the english. You only seem to associeate greek word "Eros" with Love. (passion or strong feeling) What God is looking for is Agape'. This love is an effort or a choice. even if a young child does not know his Mother as His mother he still chooses to bond with her with all that he is, and as such qualifies as Agape' (or simply 'Love' in the english.)

Eventually, kids grow and come to love their parents... but they know about them, by then, don't you agree?

I agree that this love matures over time the greeks have a name for this type of love as well 'Storge'

---

did you test your waters or God's?

If god showed up and pissed in a test tube that would be evidence....subject to proving that he was actually "god."

So you would need God to show up to prove himself to be God but then He'd have to prove himself to be God if he showed up...

Does that sum up your requirements?
You want a self verification of God, from God??? Yet you are the first to shoot down any arguement siting the bible when anything that resembles this mess is attempted.. (their is a whole nother discussion here, but I will digress)

Or are you saying there is nothing God could say or do to prove anything to you? If this is the case and God could not prove anything to you then why should I try to? If this is not what you are saying then please simply state the one thing you would need to know God exists. Without doubt without question or second thought. what culd God give you that would allow or rather FORCE you to have an unshakeable faith for the rest of your life?

[Minimalist]

Listen, asshole, ANYONE...even you...could CLAIM to be god and piss in a test tube. I am not impressed by such verbal claims. I will devise a test on the spot which should be sufficient to establish his bona fides as "god."
(Maybe....making the republicunt party into human beings?)

As a matter of fact...it seems you are a devoted follower of some shlepper who claimed to be god. I hope you feel very silly about that.

Holy Spirit inspired the account.

Evidence of that absurd statement or are we just supposed to take your word for it.

( If so...see above.)

[pocaracas]

I can present you with a book that claims that three little pigs can build houses. "it is written". Does that make it true? does that make it real? can you understand the difference between these two concepts?

But I asked you to be recursive.... Someone wrote whatever is on the bible. How did that person come to have that knowledge?

Holy Spirit inspired the account.

Sorry for being stupid, but I fail to see how that knowledge came to be in the possession of a human being.

God authored the passage, through the pen of Paul's scribe.

So, some guy writes a story. Claims he was inspired to write it by the very same being about which he's writing...
And you believe both the claim and the story.

Can you imagine anyone doing that nowadays? What would be the outcome?
Would people believe it? or would they just dismiss it as nonsense?
Why shouldn't we dismiss that thousands of years old story as just such nonsense?

Besides, if god did inspire one guy to write such stories, what keeps him from inspiring all people? Why should we all lesser humans believe this one guy's inspiration? Sounds mighty suspicious, to me.

It is written? oh, yeah.... not buying it, remember?

so?
You are asking Questions about God that are based on what the bible says. you can not choose to then ignore the same bible when the answers you seek, are based on the bible you orginally asked your questions from.

well you can, but your 'logic' will be deemed fallacious, and therefore dismissed as an invalid arguement. eitherway this line of reasoning you have presented is at an end... Hence my orginal response. So?

My questions about god are more about why would anyone believe that such a being exists. It makes no sense, to me.
But believers never make sense...

How is it that anyone ever came to know that?

How does anyone know anything about God?
God told them. Or God Inspired the account.

Was it written before anyone wrote it?!

Maybe you can ask God that one, yourself.

I've been waiting for him to show up for quite a while, but I still get nothing...

soooo.... some options are always good:
- If I believe there is a hell, I choose to steer clear of it.
- If I know there is a hell, I choose to steer clear of it.

Actually no. Not all who know of Hell steer clear of it.

- If I don't believe there is a hell, I don't choose anything.- If I don't know there is a hell, I don't choose anything.

Choosing nothing is Choosing Hell/eternal seperation from God..

Eternal separation from god.
Why would that be so bad?

How is knowledge different from belief, here?

You answer that in you next sentence. In that one can choose to dismiss simple belief.

Of course, I refuse to believe, so I could only be lead to steer clear of hell by knowing about it.

Why? as a matter of self perservation or because you will somehow begin to love God?

Aye, self-preservation.
I can't love some guy who can put an end to soooo much misery around the world, but just doesn't.

I cannot choose to believe. I refuse to believe in the existence of the super-natural. My mind doesn't allow such nonsense.

Simple belief is not the goal. Love is. One must Love the Lord God with all their Heart, Mind, Spirit, and Strength. The demons 'believe' and it means nothing to God.

The demons... I believe they exist as much as your god does.
Human hierarchy had to trickle down to the book being written by humans and for humans. As with all stories, there must be a good guy with which the audience is supposed to associate, and the bad guy which is the antagonist. The darth vader for Luke, the nazis for Indiana Jones, etc, etc
The wolf for the 3 little pigs.

Some species are born and associate the first living thing they see with their mothers. If there is love in there or not, I don't know.... If there is love in a days old baby, I don't know. Do you know?

Yes, for the love required is defined. Not as a 'feeling or a strong desire' but as an all encompassing devotion. In the greek there are 4 words that simply translate into the word' love' in the english. You only seem to associeate greek word "Eros" with Love. (passion or strong feeling) What God is looking for is Agape'. This love is an effort or a choice. even if a young child does not know his Mother as His mother he still chooses to bond with her with all that he is, and as such qualifies as Agape' (or simply 'Love' in the english.)

Call it what you (and whoever came up with those terms) want, but it's just "enjoy a concept".
I agape math.

[Drich]

[quote='pocaracas' pid='325658' dateline='1345634690']
[quote]So, some guy writes a story. Claims he was inspired to write it by the very same being about which he's writing...
And you believe both the claim and the story. Can you imagine anyone doing that nowadays? What would be the outcome?
Would people believe it? or would they just dismiss it as nonsense?
Why shouldn't we dismiss that thousands of years old story as just such nonsense?[/quote]
what you guys either dissmiss or simply do not understand is with in that bible there are promises God makes through the words of the men who penned the bible, to each and everyone who follows the path of the believer. what makes the bible crediable is not what these men wrote 2000 years ago but the fact that each indivisual can test or hold God to the promises made.

The fact that God is full filling these promises 2000+ years after the accounts were first penned.

[quote]Besides, if god did inspire one guy to write such stories, what keeps him from inspiring all people?[/quote]No one guy wrote the bible. Several did.

[quote] Why should we all lesser humans believe this one guy's inspiration? Sounds mighty suspicious, to me.[/quote]One man several it does not really matter. What does is the account can be verified.

[quote]My questions about god are more about why would anyone believe that such a being exists. [/quote]
Because per said promises God has revealed Himself to the believer.

[quote]I've been waiting for him to show up for quite a while, but I still get nothing... [/quote]God (according to scripture) does not show up uninvited. so my question is did you invite Him?
[quote]
Eternal separation from god.
Why would that be so bad?[/quote]
For some it is not. There are those who spend their entire lives trying to put distance between themselves and God. For them being with God for eternity would be far worse than being seperated from Him.

[quote]Aye, self-preservation.
I can't love some guy who can put an end to soooo much misery around the world, but just doesn't.[/quote]
Again not everyone can. Some feel the need to judge God based on their own standard of righteousness, over looking their own short falls to scratch and claw their way to their own sense of moral high ground, just so a judgement can be levied against God theirby justifying their life's desisions. For people who dismiss God's righteousness for their own.. It is next to impossiable for them to Love God.



[quote]The demons... I believe they exist as much as your god does.[/quote]So do I.



[quote]Call it what you (and whoever came up with those terms)[/quote]The Greeks, 'Came up with those terms.' This is important because the New Testament was written in Greek. So to understand the greek is to better to understand what is written.

[The Grand Nudger]

what were you looking for?

Meh, nothing in particular. Just general human curiosity.

did you test your waters or God's?

Wouldn't all waters be gods waters? Again, you haven't thought this through. If you want to dismiss all others experiences (or lack of experience) with the divine that's your own business. If you think that dismissing others experiences strengthens the validity or plausibility of your own you are mistaken. All you will accomplish by this is a long litany of the manners in which a god does not make itself known, without being able to provide a single example of a way in which a god does make itself known. A counter-intuitive goal for a believer, imho.

[pocaracas]

what you guys either dissmiss or simply do not understand is with in that bible there are promises God makes through the words of the men who penned the bible, to each and everyone who follows the path of the believer. what makes the bible crediable is not what these men wrote 2000 years ago but the fact that each indivisual can test or hold God to the promises made.

The fact that God is full filling these promises 2000+ years after the accounts were first penned.

each individual can attest or hold god to the promises made.... promises fulfilled?
What? where? which? I'm curious...

Besides, if god did inspire one guy to write such stories, what keeps him from inspiring all people?

No one guy wrote the bible. Several did.

ok then... several guys came up with the idea... Have you seen the number of people involved in making one movie? It boils down to the same. Why didn't this god inspire everyone equally? Why were those bronze age writers any better than you or me?

Why should we all lesser humans believe this one guy's inspiration? Sounds mighty suspicious, to me.

One man several it does not really matter. What does is the account can be verified.

Oh it can?
How can there be any other religion on this Earth, then? If that one account is completely verifiable. How can there be atheists?

My questions about god are more about why would anyone believe that such a being exists.

Because per said promises God has revealed Himself to the believer.

That's what I call circular logic.
If you believe there is a god, he is reveals himself to you. From my POV, if you believe, no god is required to reveal himself.... your own mind can do that job. How can you tell if he did reveal himself to you, or if it's your mind playing tricks on you?

I've been waiting for him to show up for quite a while, but I still get nothing...

God (according to scripture) does not show up uninvited. so my question is did you invite Him?

Sure. I wrote him an invitation and sent it via santa in the north pole.... somehow, the postman knows where to find santa. My guess is that santa can find god. He never replied.

Aye, self-preservation.
I can't love some guy who can put an end to soooo much misery around the world, but just doesn't.

Again not everyone can. Some feel the need to judge God based on their own standard of righteousness, over looking their own short falls to scratch and claw their way to their own sense of moral high ground, just so a judgement can be levied against God theirby justifying their life's desisions. For people who dismiss God's righteousness for their own.. It is next to impossiable for them to Love God.

I judge your god by the standard of righteousness which he is claimed to us on humans..... Thou shal not kill (or, by omission, allow to be killed, aka being an accomplice)

Call it what you (and whoever came up with those terms)

The Greeks, 'Came up with those terms.' This is important because the New Testament was written in Greek. So to understand the greek is to better to understand what is written.

new testament?
I was under the slight impression that the concept of god had been around for a few millenia by the time the NT was penned in greek.

[FallentoReason]

Because per said promises God has revealed Himself to the believer.

How did you come to that conclusion? There's no witness accounts in the NT.