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God commands child sacrifice (not Isaac story)
#11
RE: God commands child sacrifice
(September 23, 2012 at 11:58 pm)Drich Wrote:
(September 23, 2012 at 11:38 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: You're ignoring the context. The very next sentence talks about "giving" animals. It's clearly sacrifice.
Ah, no.
Not all animals "Given to God" were put to death. Otherwise where did the preists get their milk, eggs, wool and the like from?

Please provide evidence for that assertion.

Chapter 13 of Exodus provides further evidence that sacrifice, not dedication was in mind. This chapter, even though presented previous to chapter 22, was written later. It is an elaboration of 22. Also notice that animals are now sacrificed in substitution of children (which isn't mentioned in the older law in chapter 22).

Redeem in this passage means to "buy back" by sacrificing a lamb in place.


Quote:1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Consecrate to me all the first-born; whatever is the first to open the womb among the people of Israel, both of man and of beast, is mine." 3 And Moses said to the people, "Remember this day, in which you came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage, for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place; no leavened bread shall be eaten. 4 This day you are to go forth, in the month of Abib. 5 And when the LORD brings you into the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites, which he swore to your fathers to give you, a land flowing with milk and honey, you shall keep this service in this month. 6 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a feast to the LORD. 7 Unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days; no leavened bread shall be seen with you, and no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory. 8 And you shall tell your son on that day, 'It is because of what the LORD did for me when I came out of Egypt.' 9 And it shall be to you as a sign on your hand and as a memorial between your eyes, that the law of the LORD may be in your mouth; for with a strong hand the LORD has brought you out of Egypt. 10 You shall therefore keep this ordinance at its appointed time from year to year. 11 "And when the LORD brings you into the land of the Canaanites, as he swore to you and your fathers, and shall give it to you, 12 you shall set apart to the LORD all that first opens the womb. All the firstlings of your cattle that are males shall be the LORD's. 13 Every firstling of an ass you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. Every first-born of man among your sons you shall redeem. 14 And when in time to come your son asks you, 'What does this mean?' you shall say to him, 'By strength of hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 15 For when Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD slew all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both the first-born of man and the first-born of cattle. Therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all the males that first open the womb; but all the first-born of my sons I redeem.' 16 It shall be as a mark on your hand or frontlets between your eyes; for by a strong hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt." 17 When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, "Lest the people repent when they see war, and return to Egypt."

Robert M. Price discusses human sacrifice at 35:20 here: http://llnw.libsyn.com/p/3/5/8/358b9e26e...904dc87e9f

He also replies to the objection about it being "dedication" here at 16:55: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/22093846?lang=en_US#
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"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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#12
RE: God commands child sacrifice (not Isaac story)



Apparently God liked the smell. I'll bet he smokes a pipe, with one of those obnoxious scented tobaccos.

I'm going to go to the local university and ask around, find the poorest speller I can, and sacerfice them in Drich's name. Lord Almighty, switch to a browser with spellchecking. (e.g. Firefox)


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#13
RE: God commands child sacrifice (not Isaac story)
(September 24, 2012 at 2:45 am)apophenia Wrote: ...

I'm going to go to the local university and ask around, find the poorest speller I can, and sacerfice them in Drich's name. Lord Almighty, switch to a browser with spellchecking. (e.g. Firefox)

I thought he was just drunk.
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"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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#14
RE: God commands child sacrifice (not Isaac story)
This is all easily cleared up with a study of the Bible. "Give" means to consecrate, as read in Exodus 13:2. Exodus 13:12-13 explains the redeeming process, saying "Redeem every firstborn among your sons." Numbers 18:15 adds, "The first-born of man shalt thou surely redeem; and the firstling of an unclean beast shalt thou redeem." So all firstborns were offered, while sons and unsuitable livestock were held back from the altar. This is just an extension of Isaac's story, allowing the beast to take his place, and ultimately Jesus to be sacrificed once for all.
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#15
RE: God commands child sacrifice (not Isaac story)
(September 24, 2012 at 4:06 am)Undeceived Wrote: This is all easily cleared up with a study of the Bible. "Give" means to consecrate, as read in Exodus 13:2. Exodus 13:12-13 explains the redeeming process, saying "Redeem every firstborn among your sons." Numbers 18:15 adds, "The first-born of man shalt thou surely redeem; and the firstling of an unclean beast shalt thou redeem." So all firstborns were offered, while sons and unsuitable livestock were held back from the altar. This is just an extension of Isaac's story, allowing the beast to take his place, and ultimately Jesus to be sacrificed once for all.

As I explained in a later post, chapter 13 was written after chapter 22. It's a later development from a time in Israel when child sacrifice became unacceptable. Chapter 22 is from an earlier time when child sacrifice was acceptable. It's also what was probably referenced in the Ezekiel passage I quoted which is plainly talking about how God commanded child sacrifice and later rescinded his order.

Following in the steps of Drich, you seem to be just cherry picking what "give" means.

Numbers isn't relevant. It does not rule out that the earlier passage of Exodus is talking about child sacrifice.
My ignore list




"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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#16
RE: God commands child sacrifice
(September 24, 2012 at 1:12 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: [quote='Drich' pid='340775' dateline='1348459107']
Ah, no.
Not all animals "Given to God" were put to death. Otherwise where did the preists get their milk, eggs, wool and the like from?

Please provide evidence for that assertion.

Chapter 13 of Exodus provides further evidence that sacrifice, not dedication was in mind. This chapter, even though presented previous to chapter 22, was written later. It is an elaboration of 22. Also notice that animals are now sacrificed in substitution of children (which isn't mentioned in the older law in chapter 22).

Redeem in this passage means to "buy back" by sacrificing a lamb in place.


Quote:1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Consecrate to me all the first-born; whatever is the first to open the womb among the people of Israel, both of man and of beast, is mine." 3 And Moses said to the people, "Remember this day, in which you came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage, for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place; no leavened bread shall be eaten. 4 This day you are to go forth, in the month of Abib. 5 And when the LORD brings you into the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites, which he swore to your fathers to give you, a land flowing with milk and honey, you shall keep this service in this month. 6 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a feast to the LORD. 7 Unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days; no leavened bread shall be seen with you, and no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory. 8 And you shall tell your son on that day, 'It is because of what the LORD did for me when I came out of Egypt.' 9 And it shall be to you as a sign on your hand and as a memorial between your eyes, that the law of the LORD may be in your mouth; for with a strong hand the LORD has brought you out of Egypt. 10 You shall therefore keep this ordinance at its appointed time from year to year. 11 "And when the LORD brings you into the land of the Canaanites, as he swore to you and your fathers, and shall give it to you, 12 you shall set apart to the LORD all that first opens the womb. All the firstlings of your cattle that are males shall be the LORD's. 13 Every firstling of an ass you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. Every first-born of man among your sons you shall redeem. 14 And when in time to come your son asks you, 'What does this mean?' you shall say to him, 'By strength of hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 15 For when Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD slew all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both the first-born of man and the first-born of cattle. Therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all the males that first open the womb; but all the first-born of my sons I redeem.' 16 It shall be as a mark on your hand or frontlets between your eyes; for by a strong hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt." 17 When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, "Lest the people repent when they see war, and return to Egypt."

First things first, Robert Price is a stuttering incoherent idiot who cares nothing for the truth, all he looks for is recognition to bolster his ego.

Second you would believe anything anyone would tell you about scripture as long as it is negative, you are incapable of searching scripture to find anything, good or bad. You use the arguments of others to make claims against God, you are not an original thinker, a copycat at best.

Third a little lesson on scripture, the verses you used in no way implies God calls for child sacrifice.
Ex. 13:2 uses the word consecrate in your translation and sanctify in mine, which means to make holy or free from sin, this does not even approach being sacrificed.
Ex. 13:12 uses the words set apart in your translation, in mine it's devote, meaning dedicate, to set apart for a special purpose, to commit to wholly or chiefly. Again this does not come close to meaning sacrifice.
Ex. 13:13-15 says the children are to be redeemed, meaning to ransom, free, or rescue by paying a price ( this is key to what God is stating). Redeem also means to free from the consequences of sin, another key point in what God is saying. Verse 14 also speaks of the son asking the father what does all this mean, how is it that a male infant that has been sacrificed can ask dad years later, what does all this mean, want to explain this one for us 'tegh'.
Lev. 27:26 However, a first-born among animals, which as a first-born belongs to the LORD, no man may consecrate it; whether ox or sheep,it is the LORD's.
Here we see the distinction God makes between the first-born of animals and the first-born of man.
As for Eze. 20:25-26 the parents have corrupted their children, by the way they lived their lives before their children.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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#17
RE: God commands child sacrifice
(September 23, 2012 at 11:22 pm)Drich Wrote:
(September 23, 2012 at 11:07 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Yep, I was right. You didn't read what I posted! ROFLOL This is a command from God to the Israelites!. It's in Exodus!

Big Grin I didn't look, because I know the only thing close to human sacerfice is what went down between isac and Aberham

Your quote in exo 22 hinges on the word "Give" to mean Human sacerfice. The word in the Hebrew is: נתן/nathan. It means to dedicate or promise to. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...5414&t=KJV
Actually it can mean a varity of things, however none of which have anything t do with Human sacerfice.

Your second arguement looks like it was constructed from a hasty google search. here is what the text looks like when properly placed in context:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm...JV#conc/26

It seems to have a completely different meaning than how you orginally thought.

I would laugh but I see you trying so I'll leave it at that. Just remember the bible was not written in english so to try and take it a just face value may leave you looking foolish.

Sorry, could we all just take a moment to appreciate the panicked spelling, grammatical errors and how quickly he became defensive in this post after he realized he'd been found out not even to of read the OP?
Thanks. :-)
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die." 
- Abdul Alhazred.
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#18
RE: God commands child sacrifice
(September 24, 2012 at 4:50 am)Godschild Wrote: ...
First things first, Robert Price is a stuttering incoherent idiot who cares nothing for the truth, all he looks for is recognition to bolster his ego.

Second you would believe anything anyone would tell you about scripture as long as it is negative, you are incapable of searching scripture to find anything, good or bad. You use the arguments of others to make claims against God, you are not an original thinker, a copycat at best.

...

Since you contributed nothing new in your scriptural arguments, and completely missed the point of me quoting chapter 13, and likely didn't even listen to the links I provided I will focus on your criticisms Price and myself.

Price has two PHDs in biblical studies. This doesn't make him right but he's certainly not the "stuttering incoherent idiot" you say he is. Maybe you should stop projecting yourself onto others.

Secondly, these are not arguments original to Price. This is a view represented by many critical Bible scholars. (Which, again, doesn't mean it's correct.)

Your point against me is completely ad hominem
My ignore list




"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
Reply
#19
RE: God commands child sacrifice (not Isaac story)
I want to point out the irony of the frantic replies of the Christians in this thread. If they were consistent, they should have no problem with child sacrifice being commanded in the bible, since they already see no problem with God commanding the Israelites to slaughter innocent women and children in battle. Really, their argument should be "So what?"

What's that? Do you think they might be getting their sense of morality from somewhere other than God? Nah, couldn't be! Shock
My ignore list




"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
Reply
#20
RE: God commands child sacrifice
(September 24, 2012 at 6:08 am)RaphielDrake Wrote:
(September 23, 2012 at 11:22 pm)Drich Wrote: Big Grin I didn't look, because I know the only thing close to human sacerfice is what went down between isac and Aberham

Your quote in exo 22 hinges on the word "Give" to mean Human sacerfice. The word in the Hebrew is: נתן/nathan. It means to dedicate or promise to. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...5414&t=KJV
Actually it can mean a varity of things, however none of which have anything t do with Human sacerfice.

Your second arguement looks like it was constructed from a hasty google search. here is what the text looks like when properly placed in context:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm...JV#conc/26

It seems to have a completely different meaning than how you orginally thought.

I would laugh but I see you trying so I'll leave it at that. Just remember the bible was not written in english so to try and take it a just face value may leave you looking foolish.

Sorry, could we all just take a moment to appreciate the panicked spelling, grammatical errors and how quickly he became defensive in this post after he realized he'd been found out not even to of read the OP?
Thanks. :-)

How do these errors differ from the normal ones?
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