God commands child sacrifice (not Isaac story)

[KichigaiNeko]

Is it just me or has everyone else noticed that the religious (on this board and in the general public) always play the victim card when questioned about their particular brand of imaginary friend??

Their faith must be so weak

[Godscreated]

Go ahead. Considering I already addressed Undecieved's arguments, it will be interesting (amusing?) to read what you say. Be sure to address the scholarship I referenced here http://atheistforums.org/thread-14973-po...#pid341173

Ezekiel 20:25 "And I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live;

This passage is connected necessarily to this passage that comes just before it.

Ezekiel 20:18 "And I said to their children in the wilderness, 'Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, or keep their ordinances, or defile yourselves with their idols.

In verse 25 the statutes and ordinances were those that the former generations followed, those would be the ones of their own making, not God's. God is allowing this generation to follow their fathers wrong ways.

Ezekiel 20:21 "But the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, nor were they careful to observe My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live ...

This verse shows that the statutes and ordinances in verse 25 is not the ones God gave, they are however the ones man made for themselves. The statutes and ordinances that God gave leads to life, the statutes and ordinances of man leads to death.

Now to other books that have related verses.

Psalms 81:11 "But My people did not listen to My voice; And Israel did not obey Me. 12) "So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their own heart, To walk in their own devices. 13) "Oh that My people would listen to Me, That Israel would walk in My ways!

Isaiah 66:1-4 Thus says the LORD, "Heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest? 2) "For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD. "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word. 3) "But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man; He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog's neck; He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine's blood; He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol. As they have chosen their own ways, And their souls delight in abominations, 4) So I will choose their punishments, And I will bring on them what they dread. Because I called, but no one answered; I spoke, but they did not listen. And they did evil in my sight, And chose that in which I did not delight."

The above verses show that God's people chose their own way and that He would punish them. These verses show that God turned them over to their own evil ways, ways that would eventually destroy them, this is what God said would happen if they ignored His statutes and ordinances.

Ezekiel 20:26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, ( remember the verses from Isaiah 66:1-4) in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am the LORD.'"

The gifts here also refer to them sacrificing their children, this is why God pronounced them unclean. This very people of God chose to sacrifice their children to Him, He did not tell them to. Here are supporting verses.

Ezekiel 20:30-31 "Therefore, say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Will you defile yourselves after the manner of your fathers and play the harlot after their detestable things? 31) "And when you offer your gifts, when you cause your sons to pass through the fire, (notice who causes the sons to pass through the fire) you are defiling yourselves with all your idols to this day. (God would not have thought them to be defiling themselves, if He had commanded them to sacrifice their sons.)

Jeremiah 7:30-31 "For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight," declares the LORD, they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. 31) "And they have built to the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into my mind.

The verses here also show that child sacrifice was not of God.

Leviticus 18:21 'Neither shall you give any of your offspring to offer them to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God; I am the LORD.

Leviticus 20:1-5 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2) "You shall also say to the sons of Israel, 'Any man from the sons of Israel or from the aliens sojourning in Israel, who gives any of his offspring to Molech, shall surely be put to death; the people of the land shall stone him with stones. 3) 'I will also set My face against that man and will cut him off from among his people,because he has given some of his offspring to Molech, so as to defile My sanctuary and to profane My holy name. 4) 'If the people of the land, however, should ever disregard that man when he gives any of his offspring to Molech, so as not to put him to death, 5) then I Myself will set My face against that man and against his family; and I will cut off from among their people both him and all those who play the harlot after him, by playing the harlot after Molech.

These verses show that child sacrifice was detestable to God, He hated the thought of His people sacrificing their sons and daughters to any so called god ie. Molech.
I hope this is enough to show you how wrong Price is, his agenda against God has blinded him, just as the scriptures says will happen to those who profane or disregard the word of God.

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

Godschild, you missed one very very important part of Ezekiel 20:25-26. It's easy to miss so pay close attention:

25 Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; 26 and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.

And again, all those other verses you quoted do not prove anything. I don't assume that all of the Bible's parts are suppose to be in harmony with each other. I don't assume that God must be consistent. All you're doing is just showing contradictions in the Bible.

[Godscreated]

Godschild, you missed one very very important part of Ezekiel 20:25-26. It's easy to miss so pay close attention:

25 Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; 26 and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.

And again, all those other verses you quoted do not prove anything. I don't assume that all of the Bible's parts is suppose to be in harmony with each other. I don't assume that God must be consistent. All you're doing is just showing contradictions in the Bible.

Like I said, it's the blind leading the blind, careful there are holes to fall in, as if you haven't already.

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

Godschild, you missed one very very important part of Ezekiel 20:25-26. It's easy to miss so pay close attention:








And again, all those other verses you quoted do not prove anything. I don't assume that all of the Bible's parts is suppose to be in harmony with each other. I don't assume that God must be consistent. All you're doing is just showing contradictions in the Bible.

Like I said, it's the blind leading the blind, careful there are holes to fall in, as if you haven't already.

Well, if I'm blind, you must be like Hellen Keller.

[Reasonable_Jeff]

Hey guys, just wanted to throw in my two cents.

First off, if this proves anything at all...it would only prove that the Bible is inerrant. I'm not arguing for inerrancy, rather I'm just going to try and provide some thoughts for consideration.
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The first text simply is not explicit. Either side of the argument, "he's saying slay them!" or "he's saying dedicate them," is going to be from contextual evidence and none of us here are trained in hermeneutics (I assume).

The word for "you shall give" in hebrew is "nathan" and has the following meanings in scripture. None of the meanings are "sacrifice." I think a stronger case can be made for "dedicate" but like I said....none of us, especially me, really possess the knowledge to make a strong case either way using only this text alone.

נָתַן nathan (678a); a prim. root; to give, put, set:—abandon(1), add(1), added(1), allow(14), allowed(3), applied(1), appoint(5), appointed(15), apportion(1), appropriated(1), ascribe(2), ascribed(2), assigned(5), bear(1), bestow(1), bestowed(2), blame*(1), bring(10), bring down(2), bringing(2), brings(2), brought(3), cast(3), cause(2), causes(1), certainly be given(1), certainly give(1), comes(1), commit(1), committed(1), conferred(1), consider(1), consign(1), contribute(1), cried(1), dedicated(1), defeat(1), deliver(26), delivered(26), delivers(3), designate(1), designated(1), direct(1), display(1), displayed(1), distribute(2), divide(1), enabled(1), entrust*(1), entrusted(2), entrusted*(1), establish(1), established(1), exchange(1), execute(1), executes(2), fasten(2), fastened(1), find(1), furnishing(1), gave(293), generously give(1), gift(1), give(491), given(259), gives(67), giving(37), grant(18), granted(11), growl*(1), had(3), hand over(2), hang(3), has had(1), have(2), have*(1), heap(1), held(1), hung(1), impose(1), imposed(3), indeed deliver(1), indeed give(1), inflict(2), inflicted(1), injured*(1), injures*(1), inserted(1), instilled(4), issued(5), kept giving(1), laid(5), lay(12), laying(1), lays(1), left(2), left hanging(1), lend(1), lends(1), let(7), lies*(1), lift(5), lifts(1), made(42), made turn(3), make(67), makes(3), making(3), marry off(1), offer(2), offered(4), Oh*(13), open*(1), over(1), paid(7), pay(6), performed(1), permit(2), pierce(1), pitch(1), place(13), placed(19), planted(1), pledged(2), pledged*(1), present(2), presented(1), prevent*(2), produces(1), provide(1), provided(2), provides(1), put(192), puts(4), putting(2), raised(2), reduces(1), render(2), repay(1), Requite(2), requited(1), roared loudly*(1), roared*(1), send(4), sends(1), sent(4), set(74), setting(5), show(2), showed(1), slander*(1), sounds forth(1), sparkles*(1), speaks forth(1), spend(1), spread(1), strike(1), submitted*(1), supplies(1), surely be given(1), surely give(2), take(2), taken(1), takes(1), to pay(1), took(1), traded(1), turned(6), used(1), utter(1), uttered(2), uttered forth(1), utters(5), wept*(1), wholly given(2), work(1), would*(7), yield(13), yield*(1), yielded(2), yields(2), yours(1).

Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.

Since I am not smart enough to make a case from that text alone I am wondering if you would allow me to draw upon other texts?

There is a method of interpreting scripture in which you use the clear passages to interpret the unclear passages. Consider the following verses:

Deuteronomy 12:29–31 (ESV) — 29 “When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ 31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.

The above scripture is clear, God doesn't condone it. We could then apply that to the text in question (Ex) and say, "seems clear God doesn't like it, he's probably not commanding it here."

For the Eze text, I thought this was very interesting.


Ezekiel 20:25–26 (ESV) — 25 Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, 26 and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.

Frankly, I don't see what the problem is.

The first part of the text "I gave them statues that were not good and rules by which they could not have life" is foreshadowing the coming of the New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31–33 (ESV) — 31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The second part is saying that they are defiled in God's eyes because they are doing what is detestable in his sight. So God allows them to do it so that in the aftermath they will know he is God.

Also it is helpful to keep in mind the context of the book of Ezekiel. Ezekiel lived during the time that Jerusalem and the Jewish people had gone into wide spread apostasy and they are being conquering by a foreign power (well they are about to, most of Ezekiel is the prophet trying to warn the people). It would not be uncommon to find alarming practices (like child sacrifice) occurring given Israels state of affairs. Because of practices like this God allowed the Jews to be put to death, their temple and homeland destroyed, and those that remained were taken captive and forced to move to a foreign land.

~~~~~

Your case seems solid because you are linking the two verses (Ex & Eze) while in reality, there is no reason to do so.

I think by your own statements (before someone had tried to appeal to another chapter of Ex but you said it was written later after God had changed his mind) these two verses shouldn't be linked. Eze was written WAY after Ex, so by your own criteria (doesn't count because it came after) these verses are not a problem.

[Reasonable_Jeff]

Also, can I take it from your thread title that you believe in Gods existence?

Using your method of interpretation (I can take a small "verse" and extrapolate massive implications contrary to the established character of the person/being) it seems to me that you believe in Gods existence as much as I do.

Glad to have another theist here =D

[Reasonable_Jeff]

This is an invalid way of studying the Bible as it assumes that the whole bible is inerrant and can be harmonized together to form one true coherent message.

It seems that by your own statement your position is flawed. Are you not taking verses from different parts of the Bible and trying to harmonize them together to prove your point?

[Cyberman]

Also, can I take it from your thread title that you believe in Gods existence?

No you cannot. You are entitled to enquire if Tegh believes in such, but you are not entitled to take his words and twist them to suit your own ends. It's not just an honesty issue, it's plain common courtesy. You wouldn't appreciate having your words manipulated in such a way, would you?

It ought to be blatantly obvious that when an atheist or similar nonbeliever speaks about things that God is supposed to have done, or what would Jesus do, such references come with an unwritten disclaimer to the effect of "if it were to exist". This is rarely spelled out in full because it's just too cumbersome to have to do so, particularly when the context is understood.

[LastPoet]

He should also notice that the average atheist knows the bible better than he does