Ask, Seek, Knock

[Drich]

"For me it took..." Yes, for you, not necessarily for others.

Indeed. for I had a very callous heart and it took alot more than what it would take for some of you.

Actually, that was what I was reffering to. Not a general good mood, per se, but a good event that breaks a trend.

you still don't get it. Do you want me to try and explain it again? At it core what i am telling you is their isn't a 'good event.' Nothing breaks the trend. We just find contentment and the rest is window dressing for this life. for whether good, bad hardship, or excess I am given over to contentment.

I've heard the 'gumball machine' argument before. Firstly:
Matthew 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."

This is the defination of cherry picking. for Christ has a whole lot more to say on the subject than what was written in the one verse you desperatly need to focous on in order for your arguement to work. When you are ready to look at the rest of them and compile all that is written let me know and we can proceed.

Of course, some prayers that are never answered.

Every PRAYER is answered. Not all petitions are Prayers as luke 11 points out.How is there a difference between god answering prayers when he feels like it and not doing it at all? There is no way to tell the difference.

kinda already answered this one.
http://atheistforums.org/thread-14138.html

Me: Uh, god? There are some starving kids in Africa, and ones dying of diseases you created, so could you please help them? I'm just a poor college kid, I don't have much money to give.
god: pfft, yeah right! Do it yourself, fill that need! I have better things to do, like help Tebow score some touchdowns.

Actually if you knock on that door an oppertunity will arise. If you are faithful to that oppertunity then another will arise. and so on. If you are not then the door will be closed to you.

I see... How exactly did Abraham have [more] impressive faith if god didn't reveal himself to other people?

how do you know that He didn't appear to other people? History is recorded by the victors. Aberham and many sons won. Therefore their story was told. That doesn't mean their weren't any other stories.

Why did god never advocate peace?

Because peaxce is not in the heart of man.

Why didn't he reveal himself and then see who had impressive faith?

Again who is to say He didn't? As I have said many times. The Laws of God have Never been popular with those who have received it. Perhaps those who are not spoken of ignored God for their personal form of self righteousness/morality over that of God. (kinda what is happening now in our culture.)

Or did he purposely allow paganism to spread as a test of faith?

Paganism spread because God built a god shaped hole in All of our hearts. When people willingly turn from God, they still need to fill the hole. So they create gods they can control with whatever is currently passing as morality.

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I know I did, and I know all other 'christians' would say they also had a stake in the death of Christ as well. thatjust leaves everyone else alive whether they are willing to admit it or not.

I had no stake in anything that happened 2,000 years before my birth.

Like the great Hitch said, if I'd been there at the time, I'd have felt the moral obligation to try to stop it.

Based on what? If you had been there you would have grown up in a blood lust culture, and you morals would have been shaped by it just like everyone else. So anything telling you to stop it' would simply not be there then. either though conformity to your soceity or fear from the religious leaders or fear from Rome. If I would have been there i would have ran further than Peter. Unless i was working for the man then I should think I would have been the guy to drive those nails myself, then figure out after it was all over that I just killed God incarnate.

[Angrboda]

I had no stake in anything that happened 2,000 years before my birth.

Like the great Hitch said, if I'd been there at the time, I'd have felt the moral obligation to try to stop it.

Based on what? If you had been there you would have grown up in a blood lust culture, and you morals would have been shaped by it just like everyone else. So anything telling you to stop it' would simply not be there then. either though conformity to your soceity or fear from the religious leaders or fear from Rome. If I would have been there i would have ran further than Peter. Unless i was working for the man then I should think I would have been the guy to drive those nails myself, then figure out after it was all over that I just killed God incarnate.

I hope you die in a fire. Painfully. To think you can even speculate on what I "might do". Or God, even. I thought that was the point of free will, that the potential for good is always there. You Christians have your horrific, offensive, insufferable lies so bollocksed up over one another you're constantly tripping over your own lies. It's like when I was young, and my father would take me fishing and ask me to unwind a rat's nest of fishing line that had got all balled up. Inevitably, these rat's nests ended up in the drink (god knows how?), and that I would advise of you, is to toss it all in the drink. But you will not do this. Not because you think that your god cannot err, but because you believe you did not err. This is hybris, which formed the core of Greek tragedy, as the Greeks, sensible, knew that those possessed of this hybris, were destined to burn in the end. You likewise, will burn in the end, even if your God is real, because you don't know enough to, "Let go and let God." You feel this incessant need to speak on his behalf, yet I see no wings upon you. Whence comes your authority? I think it cometh not; only arrogance, and presumption.



This has been a public service message from your LOVE REMOVAL MACHINE.

[Darkstar]

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Actually, that was what I was reffering to. Not a general good mood, per se, but a good event that breaks a trend.

you still don't get it. Do you want me to try and explain it again? At it core what i am telling you is their isn't a 'good event.' Nothing breaks the trend. We just find contentment and the rest is window dressing for this life. for whether good, bad hardship, or excess I am given over to contentment.

---

You are more satisfied with your life after joining a religion, therefore god?

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I've heard the 'gumball machine' argument before. Firstly:
Matthew 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."

This is the defination of cherry picking. for Christ has a whole lot more to say on the subject than what was written in the one verse you desperatly need to focous on in order for your arguement to work. When you are ready to look at the rest of them and compile all that is written let me know and we can proceed.

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One verse, eh?

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Matthew 21:22 "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

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Mark 11:24 "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

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John 14:13-14 "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

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John 16:23
"In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name."

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1 John 5:14-15 "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him."

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I have compiled what was written. However, there seem to be terms and condtitons besides it being god's will, to the point where no prayer should be answered except under extreme cirumstances.

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Of course, some prayers that are never answered.

Every PRAYER is answered. Not all petitions are Prayers as luke 11 points out.

How is there a difference between god answering prayers when he feels like it and not doing it at all? There is no way to tell the difference.

kinda already answered this one.
http://atheistforums.org/thread-14138.html[/quote]

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Ah, yes, the fine print. Just enough conditions to allow the excuse "you did it wrong" to apply in any situation.

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Me: Uh, god? There are some starving kids in Africa, and ones dying of diseases you created, so could you please help them? I'm just a poor college kid, I don't have much money to give.
god: pfft, yeah right! Do it yourself, fill that need! I have better things to do, like help Tebow score some touchdowns.

Actually if you knock on that door an oppertunity will arise. If you are faithful to that oppertunity then another will arise. and so on. If you are not then the door will be closed to you.

---

You can say this, but you can never prove it, but you can give god credit for any successes, and say "you did it wrong" for any failure.

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I see... How exactly did Abraham have [more] impressive faith if god didn't reveal himself to other people?

how do you know that He didn't appear to other people? History is recorded by the victors. Aberham and many sons won. Therefore their story was told. That doesn't mean their weren't any other stories.

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"History is written by the victors"... Now apply that to god for a moment...if he is evil, couldn't he have scewed the biblical accounts to make him look good? (Which he did a very poor job of, by the way)

Why did god never advocate peace?

Because peaxce is not in the heart of man.

A bald philosophical statement, generally rejected by reality. As history progresses, humanity becomes less and less violent.

---

Or did he purposely allow paganism to spread as a test of faith?

Paganism spread because God built a god shaped hole in All of our hearts. When people willingly turn from God, they still need to fill the hole. So they create gods they can control with whatever is currently passing as morality.

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You're missing my point. I'm not asking why some people turned to pagansim after god appeared, I'm asking why god let paganism appear to begin with. People weren't 'turning from god' when they became pagans, because the pagan gods were the only gods they ever knew.

[KichigaiNeko]

On the "pagan issue" this jpg may be of some assistance?

[Darkstar]

*GASP*

What if the pagan gods were the true gods
and the bible was just a test of faith?

(I would have made the conspiracy meme, but I don't know how to get those from the meme generator sites into a post)

EDIT:This is the best I could do.

[Erinome]

Drich, if your god does exist, he's a prick. He can lick my ass on my way to fiery paradise, far far away from his wretched presence. Since he doesn't exist, or at least, no one can prove he exists, I don't give a fuck.

[KichigaiNeko]

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[downbeatplumb]

Did you read what you just wrote? If you could fool yourself into anything then no one would ever come out the other end without finding what they sought.

In my experience if people go looking for answers they will find them somewhere.

My wife went looking and is now a perfectly contented spiritualist. Happy that her beliefs are the correct ones all other faiths are wrong.

[pocaracas]

How is this any different from "it's all in your head"?
How can you be more confident that it's god putting pieces fitting together rather than your own mind putting them together?

Because if your 'mind' is seeking what it wants, and God offers something we do not know we want or need and that works while what we want only leaves us wanting more. Then how is it all in our head if we we find contentment if we are not seeking it in what God is offering?

Your mind is seeking some comfort. And that's exactly what it gets with the god delusion.

[Drich]

I hope you die in a fire. Painfully. To think you can even speculate on what I "might do".

first thing is first, know in your heart of hearts I was not talking to you, but it would not be difficult to predict what you have done either. I know you may want to seem independant of soceity given the 'warrior/ronin' image you are trying to project, but you would have been a sheep of soceity as well. For you as a female ( I am assumeing this based on your profile pic alone) would have been beaten into your role that that soceity had planned for you, or you would have been stonned or sold as a slave. You currently enjoy a freedom that simply did not exist then.

God, even. I thought that was the point of free will, that the potential for good is always there.

Not in that soceity. For one's 'will' was determined by their social standing/importance.

You Christians have your horrific, offensive, insufferable lies so bollocksed up over one another you're constantly tripping over your own lies. It's like when I was young, and my father would take me fishing and ask me to unwind a rat's nest of fishing line that had got all balled up. Inevitably, these rat's nests ended up in the drink (god knows how?), and that I would advise of you, is to toss it all in the drink. But you will not do this. Not because you think that your god cannot err, but because you believe you did not err.

I make mistakes all of the time. and I have absolutly admitting them. Even on this website infront of you 'good people.'

This is hybris, which formed the core of Greek tragedy, as the Greeks, sensible, knew that those possessed of this hybris, were destined to burn in the end. You likewise, will burn in the end, even if your God is real, because you don't know enough to, "Let go and let God."

Let go and let God what?

You feel this incessant need to speak on his behalf, yet I see no wings upon you. Whence comes your authority?

Do you want the bible verse? or is me telling you that at the end of the book of Matthew we have been commissioned to go out into the world and spread the good news of salvation.

I think it cometh not; only arrogance, and presumption.

I think-eth one should read-eth her bible... eth

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You are more satisfied with your life after joining a religion, therefore god?

God has revealed Himself to me, Therefore God. From this revelation I content with my cicumstances.

One verse, eh?

---

Matthew 21:22 "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

---

Mark 11:24 "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

---

John 14:13-14 "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

---

John 16:23
"In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name."

---

1 John 5:14-15 "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him."

---

I have compiled what was written. However, there seem to be terms and condtitons besides it being god's will, to the point where no prayer should be answered except under extreme cirumstances.

Again I have already answered these questions in the thread on prayer that I did. The long and short of it is not everytime you make a formal wish by bowing your head and closing your eyes can you call this activity a prayer. Christ gave only one model of prayer and superize superize it is found at the begining of luke 11.

Ah, yes, the fine print. Just enough conditions to allow the excuse "you did it wrong" to apply in any situation.

If God sets one model for prayer and you do your own thing then yes You did it wrong. If your tired of hearing you did it wrong then do it right. Forif you do God will answer every prayer.

Again God is not you personal genie that trades wishes for service or good deeds, if one only put it the proper wishing cermony. God tells you what to pray for. If you pray for what He tells you to pray for your prayers will be answered each and every time!

You can say this, but you can never prove it, but you can give god credit for any successes, and say "you did it wrong" for any failure.

I don't need to proove anything. This is God's job. I can tell you I prayed this prayer and for the first 10 years of my 'faith' I was working to feed the hungery and the working poor. I saw others do the same and pass on the oppertunity when it presented itself. they God to magic the problem away. what they and appearently you do not understand is that These problems are here for you to fix. For you to ask God for the means and resources to approach and conquor. For if every one of you who has used this failed arguement did what God has obviously placed on your heart to do this would not be a problem. Know that God judges in the sameway or rather to the same standard in which you have Judge God. Meaning this will come up again before it is all over and you will be held to the standard which you have judged God.

"History is written by the victors"... Now apply that to god for a moment...if he is evil, couldn't he have scewed the biblical accounts to make him look good? (Which he did a very poor job of, by the way)

Follow that line of reason to it's logical conculsion. Now if God is the victor, then no matter what it is His standard that we must live by. For who is able to challenge God? No one or nothing because He is the victor. Then that means your 'moral objections' become as worthless as iraqi dinars with sadam's face on then after his regime fell. sure there is a novel value to them/your morality or whatever standard you judge God to be evil. but outside of that both are completely worthless..

A bald philosophical statement, generally rejected by reality. As history progresses, humanity becomes less and less violent.

take away the a/c and super markets and then see where our nature lies. why do you think there are so many violent crimes outside of the neighborhoods that these two luxuary items are not found in? You repersent less than 10% of the worlds population. and you have not accounted for anyone outside of you 'comfort zone.' Now who's statement is loosing hair?

You're missing my point. I'm not asking why some people turned to pagansim after god appeared, I'm asking why god let paganism appear to begin with..

We (meaning all those after Christ) have been given this life to choose whether or not we want to spend eternity with God.

The people before Christ God chose them. He simply did not care what they wanted to believe.

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On the "pagan issue" this jpg may be of some assistance?

so this chart is saying there are 3500 gods of Christianity?


I think your numbers are off alittle.

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Because if your 'mind' is seeking what it wants, and God offers something we do not know we want or need and that works while what we want only leaves us wanting more. Then how is it all in our head if we we find contentment if we are not seeking it in what God is offering?

Your mind is seeking some comfort. And that's exactly what it gets with the god delusion.

My mine was seeking my stuff back. for that was the only comfort I knew.