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RE: Why Yahweh? (Or Allah, or Zeus, etc.)
October 24, 2012 at 12:18 pm
Drich has shown you the answer Darkstar. The way religious people justify that their god is the real one is by waffling bollocks and if you don't buy that, denying the need to justify their beliefs. It's a self-protection reflex of intellectual cowardice.
Ps. Another reason most religious people are incapable of holding this type of comparative discussion is because they know jack shit about the specifics of other religions. And probably don't want to, again self-protection.
blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” – John 20:26-29
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RE: Why Yahweh? (Or Allah, or Zeus, etc.)
October 24, 2012 at 12:22 pm
Quote:The question is, how would each side reason that the other side was significantly more absurd?
I imagine it would go something like this.
GOD TOLD ME I WAS RIGHT!!!! DIE, INFIDEL PIG, DIE!!!!
That's usually the level of 'reason' that these motherfuckers employ.
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RE: Why Yahweh? (Or Allah, or Zeus, etc.)
October 24, 2012 at 12:30 pm
I have to go with John V on this, in that this is something Christianity has over Islam. From our perspective Christianity has an advantage, in that, the character was most probably not a real person or if he was, a lot of fake stories were attributed to him. This allows Jesus to remain consistent with the story of Moses, ie. miracles presented but disbelievers are stubborn.
Of course the Prophet Mohammad wanted to emphasize disbelievers in Prophets are stubborn, they disbelieve despite clear miracles, the only problem is that he couldn't come up with those supernatural miracles himself. So he came with red herrings, and finally a lame excuse "nothing prevented us from sending signs except the former/ancient people denied them/treated them as false". It's a lame excuse that makes no sense what so ever, and is proven wrong simply by the fact, former people rejecting signs didn't stop signs being sent after like in the case of Jesus being sent signs/miracles per account of Quran.
I would say this is a fair point, by John V, because both Christianity and Islam claim God shows such miracles to prove his representatives.
Although there was the moon splitting miracle account in Quran, it is inconsistent with the other verses with fallacious responses as to why God would not send signs.
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RE: Why Yahweh? (Or Allah, or Zeus, etc.)
October 24, 2012 at 12:40 pm
Also note that the moon-splitting text does not attribute it to Muhammed. That was later interpretation, and as noted, conflicts with the multiple other passages in which Muhammed denies miraculous powers.
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RE: Why Yahweh? (Or Allah, or Zeus, etc.)
October 24, 2012 at 12:51 pm
(October 24, 2012 at 12:30 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I have to go with John V on this, in that this is something Christianity has over Islam. From our perspective Christianity has an advantage, in that, the character was most probably not a real person or if he was, a lot of fake stories were attributed to him.
Actually, mohammed suffers from the same problem.
http://youtu.be/VUC5Su5P8D4
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RE: Why Yahweh? (Or Allah, or Zeus, etc.)
October 24, 2012 at 1:09 pm
(October 24, 2012 at 12:51 pm)Minimalist Wrote: (October 24, 2012 at 12:30 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I have to go with John V on this, in that this is something Christianity has over Islam. From our perspective Christianity has an advantage, in that, the character was most probably not a real person or if he was, a lot of fake stories were attributed to him.
Actually, mohammed suffers from the same problem.
http://youtu.be/VUC5Su5P8D4
Heh, I have to disagree. I've seen refutations to the tape and think they have a stronger case, also, I don't think Muslims were all that dishonest in recording history myself  .
Also you have people like his grandson being killed in an uprising or the grandson of his grandson uprising, and it is well known they were descendants of the Prophet.
You also have conflicts between the daughter of the Prophet and the first Caliph, not something you really want to write about, if you are trying to show they are both of excellent character.
But just look at the issue of miracles in Quran. If someone was making a story, why would he not just attribute miracles to Mohammad, instead of being caught unable to respond to such requests, and have to resort to fallacies as a response?
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RE: Why Yahweh? (Or Allah, or Zeus, etc.)
October 24, 2012 at 2:11 pm
Oh, there is always some towel head (or bible-thumper) coming along to say "NO NO....IT'S ALL TRUE." I read Spencer's book and it is quite well documented.
I imagine there will be a fatwa out on him soon enough. We all know how those people handle criticism.
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RE: Why Yahweh? (Or Allah, or Zeus, etc.)
October 24, 2012 at 2:50 pm
(This post was last modified: October 24, 2012 at 2:51 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 24, 2012 at 11:39 am)John V Wrote: First, you're technically incorrect, as the point is that such claims aren't even made by Islam in its earliest documents.
Second, if we were comparing miracle claims of two religions, I'm sure you would not see any difference in them. Correct, which is why i mentioned that miracles are miracles, nothing unique there.
Quote:However, the question wasn't posed to you, nor was it a challenge to theists to convince atheists. The question was to theists, and asked how they differentiate evidence for their god from others.
Ah, I see, the implication of my comment just floated by. I'm wondering why whichever specific miracle you can't prove would be evidence for your god as opposed to another (or, any god really), and why miraculous narratives in general are not evidence for other gods when they are, apparently, one of the things that you feel supports your own.
Quote:We'll see. Again, pose specifics, and when I'm done with Islam (or seem to be) I'll address it.
Nah, I'm done with the waiting and seeing bit, I'd rather find something you won't back out of first.
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RE: Why Yahweh? (Or Allah, or Zeus, etc.)
October 24, 2012 at 9:49 pm
(This post was last modified: October 24, 2012 at 9:50 pm by FallentoReason.)
John V Wrote:The earliest Christian documents have Jesus performing miracles.
The earliest Christian documents were the Pauline and pseudo-Pauline epistles. They don't mention a single miracle Jesus did except for the resurrection. That puts Jesus on par with the countless other gods that resurrected prior to him. Not very impressive!
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RE: Why Yahweh? (Or Allah, or Zeus, etc.)
October 24, 2012 at 10:07 pm
(October 24, 2012 at 9:49 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: John V Wrote:The earliest Christian documents have Jesus performing miracles.
The earliest Christian documents were the Pauline and pseudo-Pauline epistles. They don't mention a single miracle Jesus did except for the resurrection. That puts Jesus on par with the countless other gods that resurrected prior to him. Not very impressive!
Why is it that the earliest christian documents are not considered canonical anyway? Jesus didn't do enough miracles in them? I mean, Mohammed not performing miracles is being used against him, so maybe they tossed out the only partly inaccurate texts in favor of fully edited ones.
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