What one thing would disprove Christianity to you?

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

The fact that psychology is a scientific field and biology is a scientific field and that when you do an autopsy on a human BRAIN you damned well know there is no such fucking thing as a non material version of such.

If there's a nonmaterial consciousness how is science, which tests material, supposed to find it? People report having "out of body experiences" with no change in brainal activity whatsoever.

This is completely irrelevant. You're only moving the goal posts to cover for your own inadequacy to answer the question.

[Undeceived]

This is completely irrelevant. You're only moving the goal posts to cover for your own inadequacy to answer the question.

No, really. I want to know how the scientific method tests nonmaterial entities. Could you offer an explanation?

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

This was the original question:

What makes you certain that the source of your feeling is external?

The question is essentially asking "how do you know you're not imagining things?" Your little rabbit trail on testing nonmaterial things has nothing to do with the topic.

[Undeceived]

This was the original question:

What makes you certain that the source of your feeling is external?

The question is essentially asking "how do you know you're not imagining things?" Your little rabbit trail on testing nonmaterial things has nothing to do with the topic.

Brian said:

The fact that psychology is a scientific field and biology is a scientific field and that when you do an autopsy on a human BRAIN you damned well know there is no such fucking thing as a non material version of such.

I was pointing out that we should not expect the scientific field to detect the nonmaterial. You and him both implied that the "feeling" mentioned above is material and therefore should have scientific evidence. It is not material, and Brian seemed to acknowledge that here (which admittedly has me confused about his stance). You, on the other hand, are maintaining that the nonmaterial has nothing to do with this "feeling" at all-- that it is a result of chemicals in the brain. Am I correct?

[ThomM]

[quote='teaearlgreyhot' pid='378276' dateline='1356547070']
This is completely irrelevant. You're only moving the goal posts to cover for your own inadequacy to answer the question.

No, really. I want to know how the scientific method tests nonmaterial entities. Could you offer an explanation?
[/quote]

When you PROVE a non-matter entitiy exists - then we can discuss it = but to date - it is just another piece of nonsense from YOU

---

[quote='teaearlgreyhot' pid='378286' dateline='1356548693']
This was the original question:


The question is essentially asking "how do you know you're not imagining things?" Your little rabbit trail on testing nonmaterial things has nothing to do with the topic.

Brian said:

The fact that psychology is a scientific field and biology is a scientific field and that when you do an autopsy on a human BRAIN you damned well know there is no such fucking thing as a non material version of such.

I was pointing out that we should not expect the scientific field to detect the nonmaterial.



However - YOU have not established that such a thing actually exists

The claim of religion is that a god exists - and that is had MANY traits - many of which are CONTRADICTING or IMPOSSIBLE to be true. Example - a god cannot be BOTH almighty and all knowing.

IF it is all knowing - it can ONLY do what it already knows it will do - and it cannot do Something else - so - almighty and all knowing is not possible

The claim of religion is that FREE CHOICE exists in a world with an ALL KNOWING GOD - that is not possible

IF a god is all knowing - then the ONLY outcome can be the ONE THING the god knows and NONE other. The word "Free" would require that we have the ability to choose to do something the god does not know -and that would NOT actually be possible if the god is actually all knowing - so actual choice does not exist - even for the all knowing god.

When YOU can PROVE something that a god exists and is non-matter (Not a claim of the christian religion) - go for it
Until then you have nothing

[Faith No More]

I'm not following.

Do bananas chew gum?

[pocaracas]

If there's a nonmaterial consciousness how is science, which tests material, supposed to find it? People report having "out of body experiences" with no change in brainal activity whatsoever.

If there's such a thing as "nonmaterial consciousness", and knowing that people have been believing in gods and souls for over 10.000 years, how did those people from 10 thousand years ago discover it?

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

This was the original question:


The question is essentially asking "how do you know you're not imagining things?" Your little rabbit trail on testing nonmaterial things has nothing to do with the topic.

Brian said:

The fact that psychology is a scientific field and biology is a scientific field and that when you do an autopsy on a human BRAIN you damned well know there is no such fucking thing as a non material version of such.

I was pointing out that we should not expect the scientific field to detect the nonmaterial. You and him both implied that the "feeling" mentioned above is material and therefore should have scientific evidence. It is not material, and Brian seemed to acknowledge that here (which admittedly has me confused about his stance). You, on the other hand, are maintaining that the nonmaterial has nothing to do with this "feeling" at all-- that it is a result of chemicals in the brain. Am I correct?

No. We're talking about external verses internal feeling. Whether it's immaterial or not is irrelevant. If you think you "feel" God, are you sure that feeling is from God (external) or just your wishful thinking (internal)?

[Undeceived]

If there's a nonmaterial consciousness how is science, which tests material, supposed to find it? People report having "out of body experiences" with no change in brainal activity whatsoever.

If there's such a thing as "nonmaterial consciousness", and knowing that people have been believing in gods and souls for over 10.000 years, how did those people from 10 thousand years ago discover it?

I’ll give you two ways nonmaterial consciousness may have occurred to ancient humans. First, some probably did not discover it, but believed in it because the idea seemed logical to them. This is a logicality that Christians attribute to the Creator, but basically the idea says that humans are able to grasp reality because their perspective of reality is outside of reality. They would know it not with a physical feeling, but by observing the fact they were able to reason at all. Science today still does not know how humans have consciousness. One issue: how do we make choices as opposed to reacting in ways predetermined by our DNA? Another: how does one "think" in the moment? People thousands of years ago understood these conundrums on a basic level, which is all they needed. They understood the uniqueness of consciousness. Today, many people are so blinded by their belief that science has all the answers that they don't even question the logistics of consciousness (I have been in that camp myself). Those thousands of years ago did not have to think very hard to come up with the concept of nonmaterial consciousness, nor did they even have to name it. They merely assumed. And when people naturally assume something, we need to look at their origins to find out why. I think we can agree that Biblical creation explains their behavior better than evolution.

But there is still one other group of people! These are the followers of Yahweh, who learned of their spirit through divine revelation. You may argue they know it through external means, but that is not the case. Their physical experience wakes the spiritual inside, and the faith resulting from the experience is evidence. As Hebrews 11:1 explains, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." To put it another way, consciousness itself cannot be observed by our consciousness. Instead, we see the fruit of a nonmaterial spirit--the fruits of the spirit love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. That is how we can tell when someone has "discovered" their nonmaterial self. When they change from the inside out. The emergence of these virtues can give us certain physical “feelings” but the nonmaterial consciousness is the cause, not the feeling itself. Feelings do not cause other feelings. They arise from the depths of our unknown mind. Can you tell me where they come from, Pocaracas? We observe what happens in our brain when we have feelings, but what is the ultimate source of any given feeling? If you say everything is a reaction to our surroundings, why can we train ourselves to react with different feelings? I may feel anger the first time I prick my finger, but enough concentration and determination and I can feel anything I want. How is that mere chemical reaction?

Disclaimer to readers: Please don’t reply “That’s not true” or “Show me evidence” for any of the above. By the very definition of nonmaterial, all evidence is personal. This is a Biblical-based explanation for how people most likely discovered nonmaterial consciousness. Reply with logic, as this is a logic-only discussion.

[Cyberman]

I'm still reeling from 'brainal'.