I can see two nerds arguing about a time travel movie.
Nerd 1: If the guy was motivated by some terrible thing in his past to build a time machine, then if he went back into the past and prevented the terrible thing from happening his motivation for building a time machine would be gone -- and he would have never been able to return to the future because that future would not exist.
Nerd 2: Yeah but maybe something else motivated him to build a time machine the second time.
Nerd 1: Yeah but if something else motivated him to build the time machine the second time then he would not be coming back from the same time or mission.
Nerd 2: Yeah so the future just changed.
Nerd 1: That is my whole point! If the future changed he would never go back to the future -- like in the movie! The future him would be gone and there would never be any memory of a time machine.
-----------------------
It seems to me that religion has similar holes.
People argue that God loves everybody and rejects nobody and that it is sin that separates people from God. So it is the sin that separates people from God -- their frame of mind when they committed the sin, and their changed perspective after committing sins. Like a politician who gets used to lying. He feels a little uncomfortable at first but after a while he gets used to it and no longer feels any guilt.
So the argument is that we reconnect with God when we feel guilt and turn back to God and repent and ask for forgiveness.
However the Christians argue that we are saved by "grace" and we are all undeserving and sinful. We are all separated from God by our sin. But God loves us anyway so we don't end up separated from God.
So if sin ultimately separate us from God then why do we have to repent and ask for forgiveness? If God is going to bring us back to him anyway then it doesn't really matter how we live.
"Did you go to confession?"
"No why should I bother? I will be saved by grace. What does it matter if I ask for forgiveness for some of my sins? There would be plenty of sins that I forget about or don't ask forgiveness for. We are all undeserving but we will all be saved in the end. That is the miracle of "grace"!"
"Yes but your heart is wrong."
"Is it? We all fall short. All of us have our heart wrong at the end. That is why we are saved by grace!!!"
------------------
And here's something from a Christian forum. This is a real debate between two Christians (http://carm.org/we-must-keep-law-order-be-saved)
Matt: Must we keep the commandments of God to be saved?
Larry: Yes, you must.
Matt: Okay, then may I ask which commandments we must keep in order to become saved?
Larry: All of them.
Matt: Are you keeping all the commandments?
Larry: I strive.
Matt: Excuse me, but if you are striving, that means you are not keeping them all. Then doesn't that mean you are not saved?
Larry: Why not let God judge?
Matt: But, if you must keep all the commandments to be saved, and you are not keeping them, then doesn't that mean you aren't saved?
Larry: Rahab lied to hide the spies, did she perish for lying?
Matt: Are you saying it was okay for Rahab to lie? After all, if she did and she didn't go to hell, then she stayed saved without keeping the commandments.
Larry: That's right.
Matt: But isn't that a contradiction? You said you must keep the commandments and yet she did not and she is saved. So which is it? Must we keep the commandments to be saved or not?
Larry: Go search out the book of the Lord and read.
Matt: Are we justified by faith or by keeping the commandments?
Larry: I already showed you the truth that Rahab lied and was JUSTIFIED for her faith,
Matt: I know, but please be patient with me. Was Rahab's lie NOT a sin?
Larry: No, it was not sin.
Matt: If the Bible says to not lie and she lied, how could it not be a sin?
Larry: Rahab was justified by faith. If you don't understand that, all I can say is that that is what the scriptures say. If you say that the scriptures contradict themselves, it appears so. But I do not believe so.
Matt: So then, the lie of Rahab was not a lie?
Larry: My advice to you is to pray about it and to ask the Lord to open it up to you.
Matt: Are we justified by the law then?
Larry: Look at what justified Abraham in James 2, but we are not justified by keeping the law. But Rahab, look at what Rahab did. She lied to save others and she was still justified.
Matt: Are you saying that it is okay to lie depending on the situation?
Larry: Yes, I am.
Matt: Please excuse me, but it sounds like you are saying that grace allows us to sin since you said it was okay to lie depending on the situation.
Larry: They said Paul was saying that too, but he wasn't any more than me. They said Paul preached "let us sin that grace may abound." No, he didn't teach sin that grace may abound, but he DID SAY that some said he said it.
Matt: I see what you are typing Larry, but, I can't help but think that you are saying it is okay to lie, depending on the circumstance, because the grace of God allows us to. Is that right?
Larry: You are saved by grace, and grace teaches, and you must obey grace. Preachers today are teaching people to sin by teaching Luther and Calvin.
Matt: But, isn't grace that which is not of the law?
Nerd 1: If the guy was motivated by some terrible thing in his past to build a time machine, then if he went back into the past and prevented the terrible thing from happening his motivation for building a time machine would be gone -- and he would have never been able to return to the future because that future would not exist.
Nerd 2: Yeah but maybe something else motivated him to build a time machine the second time.
Nerd 1: Yeah but if something else motivated him to build the time machine the second time then he would not be coming back from the same time or mission.
Nerd 2: Yeah so the future just changed.
Nerd 1: That is my whole point! If the future changed he would never go back to the future -- like in the movie! The future him would be gone and there would never be any memory of a time machine.
-----------------------
It seems to me that religion has similar holes.
People argue that God loves everybody and rejects nobody and that it is sin that separates people from God. So it is the sin that separates people from God -- their frame of mind when they committed the sin, and their changed perspective after committing sins. Like a politician who gets used to lying. He feels a little uncomfortable at first but after a while he gets used to it and no longer feels any guilt.
So the argument is that we reconnect with God when we feel guilt and turn back to God and repent and ask for forgiveness.
However the Christians argue that we are saved by "grace" and we are all undeserving and sinful. We are all separated from God by our sin. But God loves us anyway so we don't end up separated from God.
So if sin ultimately separate us from God then why do we have to repent and ask for forgiveness? If God is going to bring us back to him anyway then it doesn't really matter how we live.
"Did you go to confession?"
"No why should I bother? I will be saved by grace. What does it matter if I ask for forgiveness for some of my sins? There would be plenty of sins that I forget about or don't ask forgiveness for. We are all undeserving but we will all be saved in the end. That is the miracle of "grace"!"
"Yes but your heart is wrong."
"Is it? We all fall short. All of us have our heart wrong at the end. That is why we are saved by grace!!!"
------------------
And here's something from a Christian forum. This is a real debate between two Christians (http://carm.org/we-must-keep-law-order-be-saved)
Matt: Must we keep the commandments of God to be saved?
Larry: Yes, you must.
Matt: Okay, then may I ask which commandments we must keep in order to become saved?
Larry: All of them.
Matt: Are you keeping all the commandments?
Larry: I strive.
Matt: Excuse me, but if you are striving, that means you are not keeping them all. Then doesn't that mean you are not saved?
Larry: Why not let God judge?
Matt: But, if you must keep all the commandments to be saved, and you are not keeping them, then doesn't that mean you aren't saved?
Larry: Rahab lied to hide the spies, did she perish for lying?
Matt: Are you saying it was okay for Rahab to lie? After all, if she did and she didn't go to hell, then she stayed saved without keeping the commandments.
Larry: That's right.
Matt: But isn't that a contradiction? You said you must keep the commandments and yet she did not and she is saved. So which is it? Must we keep the commandments to be saved or not?
Larry: Go search out the book of the Lord and read.
Matt: Are we justified by faith or by keeping the commandments?
Larry: I already showed you the truth that Rahab lied and was JUSTIFIED for her faith,
Matt: I know, but please be patient with me. Was Rahab's lie NOT a sin?
Larry: No, it was not sin.
Matt: If the Bible says to not lie and she lied, how could it not be a sin?
Larry: Rahab was justified by faith. If you don't understand that, all I can say is that that is what the scriptures say. If you say that the scriptures contradict themselves, it appears so. But I do not believe so.
Matt: So then, the lie of Rahab was not a lie?
Larry: My advice to you is to pray about it and to ask the Lord to open it up to you.
Matt: Are we justified by the law then?
Larry: Look at what justified Abraham in James 2, but we are not justified by keeping the law. But Rahab, look at what Rahab did. She lied to save others and she was still justified.
Matt: Are you saying that it is okay to lie depending on the situation?
Larry: Yes, I am.
Matt: Please excuse me, but it sounds like you are saying that grace allows us to sin since you said it was okay to lie depending on the situation.
Larry: They said Paul was saying that too, but he wasn't any more than me. They said Paul preached "let us sin that grace may abound." No, he didn't teach sin that grace may abound, but he DID SAY that some said he said it.
Matt: I see what you are typing Larry, but, I can't help but think that you are saying it is okay to lie, depending on the circumstance, because the grace of God allows us to. Is that right?
Larry: You are saved by grace, and grace teaches, and you must obey grace. Preachers today are teaching people to sin by teaching Luther and Calvin.
Matt: But, isn't grace that which is not of the law?
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