jesus and muhammed real or not

[Minimalist]

That is not the issue. The issue is that NO ONE alive at the alleged time of either made the slightest notation about either one of them.

"Mohammed" supposedly a conqueror who would have been annoying the shit out of both the Byzantine and Parthian empires certainly should have been mentioned by them somewhere even as an annoyance. But they did not mention him.

Even a fantastic rumor of a crucified criminal coming back to life would have been BIG FUCKING NEWS in the Roman empire. It would have been seen as a repudiation of the Romans by the gods. Yet we listen and hear only silence from the people alive at the time. They never heard of the fucker.

[KichigaiNeko]

Curious ...

History



Kaaba in 1907
According to Islamic tradition the Kaaba was re-constructed by Abraham. It is stated in the Qur'an that this was the first house that was built for humanity to worship Allah.
[edit]Pre-Islamic era
See also: Pre-Islamic Arabia and Jahiliyyah
The early Arabian population consisted primarily of warring nomadic tribes. When they did converge peacefully, it was usually under the protection of religious practices.[14] Writing in the Encyclopedia of Islam, Wensinck identifies Mecca with a place called Macoraba mentioned by Ptolemy. His text is believed to date from the second century A.D., about 400 years before the coming of Muhammad,[15] and described it as a foundation in southern Arabia, built around a sanctuary. It probably did not become an area of religious pilgrimage until around 500 A.D. It was then that the Quraysh tribe (into which Muhammad was later born) took control of Macoraba and made an agreement with the local kinanah Bedouins for possession.[16] The sanctuary itself, located in a barren valley surrounded by mountains, was probably built at the location of the water source today known as the Zamzam Well, an area of considerable religious significance to Muslims.
In her book, Islam: A Short History, Karen Armstrong asserts that the Kaaba was dedicated to Hubal, a Nabatean deity, and contained 360 idols that either represented the days of the year[17] or were effigies of the Arabian pantheon. Once a year, tribes from all around the Arabian peninsula, whether Christian or pagan, would converge on Mecca to perform the Hajj.
Imoti[18] contends that there were multiple such "Kaaba" sanctuaries in Arabia at one time, but this was the only one built of stone. The others also allegedly had counterparts of the Black Stone. There was a "red stone", the deity of the south Arabian city of Ghaiman, and the "white stone" in the Kaaba of al-Abalat (near the city of Tabala, south of Mecca). Grunebaum in Classical Islam points out that the experience of divinity of that period was often associated with stone fetishes, mountains, special rock formations, or "trees of strange growth."[19] The Kaaba was thought to be at the center of the world, with the Gate of Heaven directly above it. The Kaaba marked the location where the sacred world intersected with the profane; the embedded Black Stone was a further symbol of this as a meteorite that had fallen from the sky and linked heaven and earth.[20]
According to Sarwar,[21] about 400 years before the birth of Muhammad, a man named "Amr bin Lahyo bin Harath bin Amr ul-Qais bin Thalaba bin Azd bin Khalan bin Babalyun bin Saba", who was descended from Qahtan and was the king of Hijaz (the northwestern section of Saudi Arabia, which encompassed the cities of Mecca and Medina), had placed a Hubal idol onto the roof of the Kaaba. This idol was one of the chief deities of the ruling Quraysh. The idol was made of red agate and shaped like a human, but with the right hand broken off and replaced with a golden hand. When the idol was moved inside the Kaaba, it had seven arrows in front of it, which were used for divination.[citation needed]
To maintain peace among the perpetually warring tribes, Mecca was declared a sanctuary where no violence was allowed within 20 miles (32 km) of the Kaaba. This combat-free zone allowed Mecca to thrive not only as a place of pilgrimage, but also as a trading center.[22]
Edward Gibbon suggested that the Kaaba was mentioned by ancient Greek writer, Diodorus Siculus, before the Christian era:
The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.
—Edward Gibbon, Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire, Volume V, pp. 223–224
Gibbon, however, had misinterpreted Siculus's text. Siculus described the location of this temple as being on a bay that extends deep inland to a distance of about 500 stades (about 80 km), and that the entrance of this bay is obstructed by a rock extending into the sea. Here is the description from Diodorus Siculus:
Next after these plains as one skirts the coast comes a gulf of extraordinary nature. It runs, namely, to a point deep into the land, extends in length a distance of some five hundred stades, and shut in as it is by crags which are of wondrous size, its mouth is winding and hard to get out of; for a rock which extends into the sea obstructs its entrance and so it is impossible for a ship either to sail into or out of the gulf. Furthermore, at times when the current rushes in and there are frequent shiftings of the winds, the surf, beating upon the rocky beach, roars and rages all about the projecting rock. The inhabitants of the land about the gulf, who are known as Banizomenes, find their food by hunting the land animals and eating their meat. And a temple has been set up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.
—Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica volume iii.44, p. 217
There is no bay that matches this description along the coast near Mecca. Furthermore, Siculus describes this area as lying between the Thamudites and the Nabataeans, not the Thamudites and the Sabeans as Gibbon erroneously stated, which would put it much farther to the north, around the area of Tabuk. It is widely believed that this bay and temple described by Diodorus is in fact the bay adjacent to Ash-Sharmah in Tabuk Province.[23]
In Makkan Trade and the Rise of Islam, Patricia Crone argues that the identification of Macoraba with Mecca is false and that Macoraba was a town in southern Arabia in what was then known as Arabia Felix.[24]
Crone was responded to by Dr. Amaal Muhammad Al-Roubi in his book "A Response to Patrica Crone's book".[25][26]
G. E. von Grunebaum says,
Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy. The name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.
—G. E. Von Grunebaum, Classical Islam: A History 600–1258, p. 19
Many Muslim and academic historians stress the power and importance of the pre-Islamic Mecca. They depict it as a city grown rich on the proceeds of the spice trade. Crone believes that this is an exaggeration and that Mecca may only have been an outpost trading with nomads for leather, cloth, and camel butter. Crone argues that if Mecca had been a well-known center of trade, it would have been mentioned by later authors such as Procopius, Nonnosus, or the Syrian church chroniclers writing in Syriac. The town is absent, however, from any geographies or histories written in the three centuries before the rise of Islam.[27]
According to the Encyclopædia Britannica, "before the rise of Islam it was revered as a sacred sanctuary and was a site of pilgrimage."[28] According to German historian Eduard Glaser, the name "Kaaba" may have been related to the southern Arabian or Ethiopian word "mikrab", signifying a temple.[15] Again, Crone disputes this etymology.

Full article here.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

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[paulpablo]

If there were a first century rabbi who had followers, preached to the masses and was crucified by the Romans, do you call that person Jesus if he didn't perform all the miracles that are attributed to Jesus?

If his name was jesus or whatever the equivilent for that name was in the time and place jesus was supposed to have been, and he was the man which the myths are based on then yes

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Mohammed" supposedly a conqueror who would have been annoying the shit out of both the Byzantine and Parthian empires certainly should have been mentioned by them somewhere even as an annoyance. But they did not mention him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Ch...n_Muhammad

This link actually mentiones Byzantine sources mentioning a deceptive prophet although they dont mention muhammed by name, and there seems to be other negative biographies of muhammed written by christians.

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"Even a fantastic rumor of a crucified criminal coming back to life would have been BIG FUCKING NEWS in the Roman empire. It would have been seen as a repudiation of the Romans by the gods. Yet we listen and hear only silence from the people alive at the time. They never heard of the fucker."

Maybe it was big news thats how the rumour esculated and christianity became the religion of rome via the emporer constantine.

[Minimalist]

The earliest (documented) Christian knowledge of Muhammad stems from Byzantine sources, written shortly after Muhammad's death in 632.

The link mentions the "doctrina Jacobi" which does not mention "mohammed." Here is the passage in question.

Doctrina Jacobi (July 634)

[Jacob, himself a convert, wrote to encourage Christian faith in Jews of Carthage, forcibly converted in 632, in a tract that was completed before "the thirteenth of July in the seventh indiction," i.e. 634, when Jacob left Carthage. In it his cousin Justus appears telling how he heard of the killing of a member of the imperial guard, or candidatus, in a letter from his brother Abraham in Caesarea, in which the following appears.]

When the candidatus was killed by the Saracens, I was at Caesarea and I set off by boat to Sykamina. People were saying "the candidatus has been killed," and we Jews were overjoyed. And they were saying that the prophet had appeared, coming with the Saracens, and that he was proclaiming the advent of the anointed one, the Christ who was to come. I, having arrived at Sykamina, stopped by a certain old man well-versed in scriptures, and I said to him: "What can you tell me about the prophet who has appeared with the Saracens?" He replied, groaning deeply: "He is false, for the prophets do not come armed with a sword. Truly they are works of anarchy being committed today and I fear that the first Christ to come, whom the Christians worship, was the one sent by God and we instead are preparing to receive the Antichrist. Indeed, Isaiah said that the Jews would retain a perverted and hardened heart until all the earth should be devastated. But you go, master Abraham, and find out about the prophet who has appeared." So I, Abraham, inquired and heard from those who had met him that there was no truth to be found in the so-called prophet, only the shedding of men's blood. He says also that he has the keys of paradise, which is incredible. (Doctrina Jacobi V.16, 209. [p. 57])

Not only is this (at best) hearsay to the 3d degree written by a citizen of far-away Carthage it does not mention mohamed.

[paulpablo]

thats a fair enough point, i just find it hard to believe there were no men named muhammed or jesus who all these myths were based upon, i always imagined them to be a bit like joseph smith the founder of the mormon church but with greater quantity of uneducated illiterate people to preach to.

[Minimalist]

That's just special pleading, though.

Do you also insist that there be an historical Osiris? Or Hercules? Or Marduk? Or Thor?

What about William Tell? Everyone knows the story. Do you know what it is based on?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palnatoki

Saxo Grammaticus relates how Palnatoke (Toko) was forced by King Harald to use a single arrow to shoot an apple from his own son's head as the boy ran downhill. The legendary motif of the great archer forced to shoot an apple from his son's head appears among other Germanic nations, as the story of Egil in the Þiðrekssaga, William of Cloudesley in an English ballad, Hemming Wolf in Holstein, Puncher in an Upper Rhenish legend in Malleus Maleficarum, and most famously William Tell in Switzerland.[3]

[Brian37]

thats a fair enough point, i just find it hard to believe there were no men named muhammed or jesus who all these myths were based upon, i always imagined them to be a bit like joseph smith the founder of the mormon church but with greater quantity of uneducated illiterate people to preach to.

Yea, saying that "this place existed" or "that person existed" doesn't constitute the cult they might start as giving them a divine crystal ball allowing them to communicate with an invisible friend.

L. Ron Hubbard was a real person, but I wouldn't join Sceintology based on that.

[Christian]

Jesus is real. The Bible is a living testimony.

[Darkstar]

Jesus is real. The Bible is a living testimony.

Your bible is alive? You should get that checked...

[Surtr]

Jesus is real. The Bible is a living testimony.

Albeit a bloody, sexist, racist, hate-filled, contradictory one.